Demos circulating on the Internet

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

Trying to assert that Mika shouldn't be angry about his demos being released because he does covers of other artist's songs is like saying that I shouldn't be mad when my brother reads my private diary because I also have a public blog.

 

Covering a song that has already been released is something that happens publicly. The song is already known to at least part of the public. The song is being performed in public. My public blog is full of thoughts I am happy to share with the public because I have crafted my words with that end in mind.

 

A demo is a private thing (shared with a select team if shared at all.) It's like a manuscript of a book or a roughdraft of a poem, a painting that isn't finished. It's a work in progress that isn't ready for public release. Lyrics may need to be re-worked. Melody may need to be refined. It may never be released to the public because it's something private.

 

Mika has every right to be angry that something that was being worked on privately got released to the public before it was finished. Even before I knew that he asked the fan club not to discuss the demoes, I avoided listening to them when I stumbled upon them because listening to them would have felt like going through his underwear drawer or reading his diary.

 

To put it another way, it's a privilege when an artist invites someone into a workshop to see how that artist works. It's a violation of the artist's privacy when someone breaks into a workshop to see what the artist is working on. Once the artist has released a work to the public, it is pretty much fair game for tributes, covers, satire, parody, criticism, and praise. The person who gets to decide if and when a thing is released publicly is the person who created it. It's a violation when someone else takes something created by someone else without permission and releases it to the public.

 

Just because Mika does covers of songs that have already been released to the public does mean that he has forfeited his right to work on his songs in private.

Thank you, dear Riverstwilight, for a very detailed and interesting reaction to... which thread ? I fail to see one where a member aired the opinion you reject so violently. Must have missed it... again !

 

Should it be an answer to mine, I must really get into the habit of dealing with one issue per post, as some people seem to get confused even when you put different subject matters into different paragraphs.

If you read attentively and honestly the last paragraph of my thread you will realize that I didn't mix up Mika's covering of other people's songs and his irritation at seing his demos circulating on the Internet. I still believe that people should take what is bad as well as what is good and Mika often says how grateful he is to the Web for allowing him to get a wide and enthusiastic audience even before recording a single, thus putting him in a stronger position when he discussed the terms of his contract and giving him complete artistic freedom with his LICM project.

 

Actually I have often noticed since I started putting threads on the forum that fans tend to misinterpret what they read (probably unconsciously) as soon as they see the slightest criticism about their idol. Rather endearing but, huge fan of Mika as I am (and, having had proofs of his great kindness as a man, great admirer of Mica Penniman), I am still able to criticize, for instance, a certain ambiguity in his reactions to the Internet. I am starry-eyed when I watch one of his gigs but otherwise my eyes remain skinned.

 

If your thread had nothing to do with mine, I most abjectly apologize for suggesting it !

Another means of avoiding confusion would be to quote the message in our reply to it.

 

So long,

 

M.-Th.

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

Hi guys,

 

apologies in advance if this is deemed silly or trivial but all i can think of when reading this thread is of

 

Weird Al Yankovich's take on Michael Jackson's 'Beat It'............ 'Eat it'.

 

 

Please listen/watch this version for a little diversion, it really makes me crease up!

 

 

 

Look out for the line .......................

'Have some more spam, it doesn't matter if it's fresh or canned'............

classic line really ................

 

Just in case you are not familiar with the original ...... it's here!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqxo1SKB0z8

 

Thanks!

 

and BTW i love Mika's versions of nearly everything including his fab version of Jackson 5 on LICM

He has a good knack for choosing fab songs to cover.

Depeche Mode is a master stroke!

Exactly !

After watching Weird Al Yancovic singing "You're pitiful" on stage, peeling off layer after layer of his clothes (at least, he wasn't wearing trainers without socks... gross !) I find it difficult to enjoy listening to the original song, good as it is (I know that Mr Penniman is not a great fan of James Blunt but I think he is very talented). Incidentally Blunt gave WAR the go-ahead and it shows some guts.

Thanks for lightening the mood of the thread exchanges... we were beginning to speak in a whisper, as in church ! And you manage to do it without making fun of others. You are a fabulous guy. No wonder : you are a Scot.

 

XXX

 

M.-Th.

[Niki27]

It is your constitutional right to disagree with other people's opinion and I entirely respect yours. So much so that I watched again these artists videos of the two songs... still not there.

 

Well I don't think you can compare a (music)video on youtube with a cover you have seen live... Same is true when you stick to one artists: I, for example, didn't really HJ until I saw it performed live by Mika.

 

The middle of the Paris / Werchter / Amsterdam axis... what a golden spot !

Were your at Werchter ? It was the second gig I went to, after London, the last concert of the winter tour, which was excellent, and before the Parc des Princes, then Beirut.

That night the band were completely insane, in a friendly and lovely way. True to say, Belgian audiences are awsome. I have often wondered since if the musicians were not a little high on stage fright just before the Parc des Princes huge challenge ? Whatever the reason I'll always feel privileged to have been there...

 

I wasn't in Werchter, no. I had to chose between Werchter and Paris because I didn't feel like i could do two gigs of this size in a row. I didn't wanna miss the PdP so I just went for Paris and Amsterdam, and no werchter;)

[kk448]

Sorry, Mr Penniman, we fans are impossible, but would you, in the same circumstances, have resisted 'stealing' a new song by... Harry Nilsson, for instance ? Tough.

 

If by that sentence you meant that Mika may have a hard time refraining from listening to a demo of Harry Nilsson's if given the chance...well then, I think I may agree with you on that. If that's not what you meant...nevermind.

[Christine]

Should it be an answer to mine, I must really get into the habit of dealing with one issue per post, as some people seem to get confused even when you put different subject matters into different paragraphs.

 

People are becoming confused because your English is awkward and you don't have some of your facts straight. I don't want to pick on anyone's language skills but your posts are coming across as condescending and I am still unclear on your point regarding Mika performing cover songs during his performances. And believe me I am a person who has no trouble distinguishing between different subjects in two properly written paragraphs.

 

Instant Martyr is no longer a demo, it's a B side to the Big Girl single and therefore its circulation on the internet is irritating to Mika for the same reason that a pirated copy of Grace Kelly or Love Today being distributed on the internet would be irritating to him.

 

Instant Martyr is not about to be released on his forthcoming album and neither is any other song out there that may be labelled as a demo. Especially Tell Me Once Again.

[Mika4Life13]

People are becoming confused because your English is awkward and you don't have some of your facts straight. I don't want to pick on anyone's language skills but your posts are coming across as condescending and I am still unclear on your point regarding Mika performing cover songs during his performances. And believe me I am a person who has no trouble distinguishing between different subjects in two properly written paragraphs.

 

Instant Martyr is no longer a demo, it's a B side to the Big Girl single and therefore it's circulation on the internet is irritating to Mika for the same reason that a pirated copy of Grace Kelly or Love Today being distributed on the internet would be irritating to him.

 

Instant Martyr is not about to be released on his forthcoming album and neither is any other song out there that may be labelled as a demo. Especially Tell Me Once Again.

Instant martyr is irrtating mika??

 

But it's on itunes, and itunes is legit! Wouldn't they need his like...permission?

[Christine]

Instant martyr is irrtating mika??

 

But it's on itunes, and itunes is legit! Wouldn't they need his like...permission?

 

Legal distribution of his music is not the problem. We're talking about illegal distribution.

[Mika4Life13]

Legal distribution of his music is not the problem. We're talking about illegal distribution.

Oh , I thought you ment like...any distribution of instant martyr.

[Moonlightchild]

Covering a song at a concert or in a TV show is something totally different than putting a cover on a cd.

I know many artist who covers others on stage,

even very big stars who are in the business for many years are doing it in their shows, mostly because they have personal feelings to that song or to the original artist.

btw;I have seen a lot of covers of Sweet Dreams preformed by different bands or singers.

I think it's a song that's really popular to be covered:wink2:

 

(Quoting to others)Oh, and I don't think you have to buy rights to preform a song on stage.

There are many small unknown bands / singers who haven't brought out a single or album yet who do performance containing only covers because they haven't got any original material themselves.

If they had to buy the rights to preform them they would go bankrupt.

Or like when you have a party and you hire a band or in a sound mix show

in your village or for example school bands at school events.

 

Covering on stage is something very common and I can't see the point why Mika shouldn't do this.

And like others said before, bringing a cover or putting a demo from somonelse on the internet are two completely different things to do.

And if you don't like some covers he does, that is ofcourse your right.

Me for example, I like the cover I can't Get Enough a lot but I really don't like The Jackson's cover.

 

I just wanted to share these facts and my opinion on this don't see it as an attack or something

[JackViolet]

Fans of a particular artist tend to give that artist preference in covers, and think that the artist's rendition of a cover song is better than the "original." I can assure you that this is not true for anyone who is not a super-fan of the artist. I can assure you that there are even plenty of MFCers who don't think his covers sound better than the originals at all. So I don't think that's a reason to worry.

 

As far as "stealing," or "appropriating" a song, he does need to get it cleared with whoever owns the right to that song before performing it, so you can rest assured if musicians had objections about the "appropriation," they could certainly have stopped Mika from covering their songs.

 

As it goes, he covers a song and credits the original musician. Maybe half of his audience, who'd never heard of that musician before and would never have checked them out, go and give them a listen. Some of these decide that Mika's version is better, and forget about the artist--no loss no gain. Some others decide that Mika's version is better, but they also like the original, and become interested in the artist's other songs: gain! Still some others decide that the original artist is much better and have a new artist to listen to. And a very few may like the original artist so much that they forget all about Mika. This is offset by some fans of the original artist later hearing Mika's version and perhaps checking him out. Everything balances.

 

--Jack

[Niki27]

 

(Quoting to others)Oh, and I don't think you have to buy rights to preform a song on stage.

There are many small unknown bands / singers who haven't brought out a single or album yet who do performance containing only covers because they haven't got any original material themselves.

If they had to buy the rights to preform them they would go bankrupt.

Or like when you have a party and you hire a band or in a sound mix show

in your village or for example school bands at school events.

 

Maybe it varies from country to country?

Anyway, since most of the covers he made were for TV shows or ended up (or will end up) on a dvd I am really convinced he had to get some kind of authorization from the original artists or their record company.

 

I also agree with what Jack just said

[JackViolet]

From Teh Internet:

 

Actually, royalties for performances of music (live as well as from recordings) are paid by the venue. Your local nightclub or coffeehouse doesn't actually keep track of each cover played. Rather, if they allow musicians to perform covers or if they play CDs on their sound system, they're hit up each year by ASCAP, BMI & SESAC for dues based on various factors such as seating capacity, number of nights on which music is played, live or recorded, etc, etc. That money goes into the general pot for the performance rights organization and is distributed to the rights holders based on various formulas. (I believe they used to survey radio stations across the country to see the number of plays for each song they administered the rights to. I don't know if they've updated that approach since then.)

 

However, as Niki said, since most of Mika's covers do end up being officially recorded and distributed in some way or another, he does need to get explicit permission for them.

 

--Jack

[Niki27]

From Teh Internet:

 

Actually, royalties for performances of music (live as well as from recordings) are paid by the venue. Your local nightclub or coffeehouse doesn't actually keep track of each cover played. Rather, if they allow musicians to perform covers or if they play CDs on their sound system, they're hit up each year by ASCAP, BMI & SESAC for dues based on various factors such as seating capacity, number of nights on which music is played, live or recorded, etc, etc. That money goes into the general pot for the performance rights organization and is distributed to the rights holders based on various formulas. (I believe they used to survey radio stations across the country to see the number of plays for each song they administered the rights to. I don't know if they've updated that approach since then.)

 

However, as Niki said, since most of Mika's covers do end up being officially recorded and distributed in some way or another, he does need to get explicit permission for them.

 

--Jack

 

Yes this is how it works in Belgium. We have an organization called SABAM and everytime you play music (be it live or recorded) for purposes that are not strictly personal (parties, christenings, concerts, etc) you have to declare it and pay a tax for it. (For small familial parties you can ask for a derogation tho). The collected money is then divided between all artists on the SABAM list according to rankings. It's also considered as a solidarity-based system between famous and less famous artists since they all get a bit of that money. Copyrights for covers are included in the system. But as I was saying, maybe it varies from one country to the next. We belgians are quite strict regarding copyrighted music and names *cough* *cough*

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

Fans of a particular artist tend to give that artist preference in covers, and think that the artist's rendition of a cover song is better than the "original." I can assure you that this is not true for anyone who is not a super-fan of the artist. I can assure you that there are even plenty of MFCers who don't think his covers sound better than the originals at all. So I don't think that's a reason to worry.

 

As far as "stealing," or "appropriating" a song, he does need to get it cleared with whoever owns the right to that song before performing it, so you can rest assured if musicians had objections about the "appropriation," they could certainly have stopped Mika from covering their songs.

 

As it goes, he covers a song and credits the original musician. Maybe half of his audience, who'd never heard of that musician before and would never have checked them out, go and give them a listen. Some of these decide that Mika's version is better, and forget about the artist--no loss no gain. Some others decide that Mika's version is better, but they also like the original, and become interested in the artist's other songs: gain! Still some others decide that the original artist is much better and have a new artist to listen to. And a very few may like the original artist so much that they forget all about Mika. This is offset by some fans of the original artist later hearing Mika's version and perhaps checking him out. Everything balances.

 

--Jack

I was writing of "artistic appropriation", nothing to do with legal issues and anything to do with the performer's talent and personality which, I think we all agree, Mika is not lacking.

[IngievV]

Yes this is how it works in Belgium. We have an organization called SABAM and everytime you play music (be it live or recorded) for purposes that are not strictly personal (parties, christenings, concerts, etc) you have to declare it and pay a tax for it. (For small familial parties you can ask for a derogation tho). The collected money is then divided between all artists on the SABAM list according to rankings. It's also considered as a solidarity-based system between famous and less famous artists since they all get a bit of that money. Copyrights for covers are included in the system. But as I was saying, maybe it varies from one country to the next. We belgians are quite strict regarding copyrighted music and names *cough* *cough*

 

SABAM was were the Belgian Mika registered her name right? Just off-topic:naughty:

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

People are becoming confused because your English is awkward and you don't have some of your facts straight. I don't want to pick on anyone's language skills but your posts are coming across as condescending and I am still unclear on your point regarding Mika performing cover songs during his performances. And believe me I am a person who has no trouble distinguishing between different subjects in two properly written paragraphs.

 

Instant Martyr is no longer a demo, it's a B side to the Big Girl single and therefore its circulation on the internet is irritating to Mika for the same reason that a pirated copy of Grace Kelly or Love Today being distributed on the internet would be irritating to him.

 

Instant Martyr is not about to be released on his forthcoming album and neither is any other song out there that may be labelled as a demo. Especially Tell Me Once Again.

Dear Christine,

 

My messages are scanned by an English friend of mine who went to university, got and MA and therefore can be credited with a fair command of his mother tongue.

But maybe American and British English are so different that some confusion may occur. And I am not being condescending : it also happens all the time in Europe’s French speaking countries.

 

And again, I am sorry, but you have again mixed up two different issues . I never wrote that Mika was irritated at seeing Instant Martyr on the Internet : I mentioned it as his first proper song, written at a very tender age and followed by loads of others ; that was in answer to a thread that implied that he had to cover other people’s songs on stage for lack of material.

 

I truly believe that you misinterpret my messages because you react to them with your guts while I try to write them in a logical, never emotional way.

Again, while I find it rather sweet when Mika’s fans rise to his defence whenever they see the slightest criticism in a thread, no matter how much I admire or love people it has never blinded me and I am unlikely to change now.

Problems of communication seem to be a weakness I share with Mr Penniman… but then it is one of the many curses Leos have to deal with.

 

More seriously, I enjoy reading the fans’ messages. I have learnt a lot from them (for instance, I didn’t know that Instant Martyr had been recorded and released or that Tell me once again was not one of Mika’s songs) and even though I too have to decode them sometimes they are always interesting. I just find it mildly irritating when people twist what I have written to make a point. Why not just post a thread, not in reaction to other people’s messages but to express how you feel about any issue connected with Mika’s music ? We would all love to read it.

 

So long,

 

M.-Th.

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

Fans of a particular artist tend to give that artist preference in covers, and think that the artist's rendition of a cover song is better than the "original." I can assure you that this is not true for anyone who is not a super-fan of the artist. I can assure you that there are even plenty of MFCers who don't think his covers sound better than the originals at all. So I don't think that's a reason to worry.

 

As far as "stealing," or "appropriating" a song, he does need to get it cleared with whoever owns the right to that song before performing it, so you can rest assured if musicians had objections about the "appropriation," they could certainly have stopped Mika from covering their songs.

 

As it goes, he covers a song and credits the original musician. Maybe half of his audience, who'd never heard of that musician before and would never have checked them out, go and give them a listen. Some of these decide that Mika's version is better, and forget about the artist--no loss no gain. Some others decide that Mika's version is better, but they also like the original, and become interested in the artist's other songs: gain! Still some others decide that the original artist is much better and have a new artist to listen to. And a very few may like the original artist so much that they forget all about Mika. This is offset by some fans of the original artist later hearing Mika's version and perhaps checking him out. Everything balances.

 

--Jack

Read my thead again : I referred to the purely artistic appropriation of Mika's rendering of other people's songs, it has nothing to do with legal issues and everything to do with talent and personality which, I think we all agree, Mika does not lack.

Thanks for reacting.

[JackViolet]

I was writing of "artistic appropriation", nothing to do with legal issues and anything to do with the performer's talent and personality which, I think we all agree, Mika is not lacking.

 

Well, thanks for replying to my post twice, but what I'm saying is, a lot of people think his covers suck. So there's no danger to the original artist.

 

--Jack

[JackViolet]

Although I read your original post again and I think I FINALLY understood what you were trying to say.

 

Um. It really is kind of awkwardly written. It's pretty hard to make out what you mean, this is why everyone's getting so confused.

 

--Jack

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

Yes this is how it works in Belgium. We have an organization called SABAM and everytime you play music (be it live or recorded) for purposes that are not strictly personal (parties, christenings, concerts, etc) you have to declare it and pay a tax for it. (For small familial parties you can ask for a derogation tho). The collected money is then divided between all artists on the SABAM list according to rankings. It's also considered as a solidarity-based system between famous and less famous artists since they all get a bit of that money. Copyrights for covers are included in the system. But as I was saying, maybe it varies from one country to the next. We belgians are quite strict regarding copyrighted music and names *cough* *cough*

Yes, we have more or less the same system in France. Whether it works satisfactorily or not is another kettle of fish but as far as very public coverages of a song are concerned (as in front of 50 000 people, in the PdesP, for instance) I am sure everybody get their due.

Where were you standing/sitting on July 4th ? I came at the end of the interval and my seat had already been 'borrowed' but everybody was very sweet, people let me stand at the front and I soon forgot about that little contretemps.

Still I was rather far from the stage, probably exhausted after Werchter, and still starry-eyed from the latter unbelievable show.

Thanks so much to bienie22 for sharing his coverage on Utube ; it was most generous of him to film the gig instead of shaking it (and the rain covering our coats) in order to keep the cold away. He is my hero !

[Niki27]

Marie Therèse...

En français dans le texte, désolée, mais au moins il n'y aura pas de malentendu. Je pense que le style employé dans tes (je peux te tutoyer?) posts en anglais est assez dur, voire snob, ainsi que cette manie de souligner des mots dans le texte... ça explique peut être pourquoi certaines personnes réagissent assez mal ou "avec leurs tripes"...

[JackViolet]

To clarify what I now think marie-andrée de rougemont meant in the first post:

 

1. She's not actually leveling any sort of serious criticism, she's just using a bit of humor

 

2. She's basically telling Mika he shouldn't be upset about his demos being available online because:

a) his recorded versions sound entirely different anyway

b) considering he owes a lot of his success to the spread of information on the internet, well, this is just the other side of the coin that one must accept

c) he can't blame fans for sharing and downloading the demos, because if he had the opportunity to hear a brand-new song by one of his favorite artists, wouldn't he jump upon it too?

 

3. Along the way she takes a detour to cheekily "blame" Mika for "ruining" some other musicians' songs for her because of how well he performed them

 

4. And she implies that if anything, this is worse than the availability of demos. This implication is also done in a cheeky way and is basically a back-handed compliment.

 

I think that's it, right?

 

I think if people re-read the original post with the idea of humor in mind they'll see it's really a cute post... but unfortunately the tone is a bit hard to determine and some of the phrasing lends itself to misunderstanding.

 

--Jack

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

Marie Therèse...

En français dans le texte, désolée, mais au moins il n'y aura pas de malentendu. Je pense que le style employé dans tes (je peux te tutoyer?) posts en anglais est assez dur, voire snob, ainsi que cette manie de souligner des mots dans le texte... ça explique peut être pourquoi certaines personnes réagissent assez mal ou "avec leurs tripes"...

Merci de ta réponse.

 

C'est vrai, on est peut-être un peu plus pompeux quand on écrit ou parle dans une langue étrangère (je décline "putain" dans toutes ses nuances mais n'arrive pas à employer "****" et ses dérivés, le remplaçant par "screw").

 

Apparemment même les Américains du Nord parviennent à décrypter ce que je veux dire, en tout cas (voir le message de Jack, dans cette page).

 

Je continue à penser qu'il y a plus qu'un problème de forme. Beaucoup de gens ne supportent pas la plus petite critique concernant ceux qu'ils aiment, ce qui, encore une fois, est plutôt attendrissant mais vraiment pas mon truc.

 

Je me demande comment ces fans-là ont pu réagir à la critique haineuse de Gareth Trucmuche, je ne me souviens pas de son nom. Il est souvent cité mais je voulais retrouver le texte original et y suis parvenue il y a quelques jours en passant par la réponse cinglante de Brian May sur son blog. Ahurissant, le fiel dirigé vers l'artiste on a l'habitude mais il maudissait à l'avance les auditeurs et acheteurs potentiels de l'album. Je ne sais pas qui est ce type mais il a vraiment besoin d'aide.

 

A bientôt.

 

M.-Th.

[marie-andrée de rougemont]

To clarify what I now think marie-andrée de rougemont meant in the first post:

 

1. She's not actually leveling any sort of serious criticism, she's just using a bit of humor

 

2. She's basically telling Mika he shouldn't be upset about his demos being available online because:

a) his recorded versions sound entirely different anyway

b) considering he owes a lot of his success to the spread of information on the internet, well, this is just the other side of the coin that one must accept

c) he can't blame fans for sharing and downloading the demos, because if he had the opportunity to hear a brand-new song by one of his favorite artists, wouldn't he jump upon it too?

 

3. Along the way she takes a detour to cheekily "blame" Mika for "ruining" some other musicians' songs for her because of how well he performed them

 

4. And she implies that if anything, this is worse than the availability of demos. This implication is also done in a cheeky way and is basically a back-handed compliment.

 

I think that's it, right?

 

I think if people re-read the original post with the idea of humor in mind they'll see it's really a cute post... but unfortunately the tone is a bit hard to determine and some of the phrasing lends itself to misunderstanding.

 

--Jack

Marie-Thérèse, courtesy of Marie-Andrée (I should really find a way to re-register...)

 

Thank you !

 

M.-Th.

[Guest]

Thanks so much to bienie22 for sharing his coverage on Utube ; it was most generous of him to film the gig instead of shaking it (and the rain covering our coats) in order to keep the cold away. He is my hero !

 

A bit off-topic, sorry ..

You're very welcome but I'm not a "he"..