The Grunge Era: Nirvana!

[Niki27]

There was a very interesting documentary about Nirvanna and REM and how the two bands were friends and influenced each other on the tv recently. Hope you watched it, Pam.

[Guest]

I used to use that deodorant though.

 

I had, literally, almost every scent Teen Spirit made when I was about 11.

[Pam Travers]

Yes!

It makes me think i've noticed this kind of behaviour amongst my students:

They were born in the 90's and when they reach a certain age they start wearing these Metallica and Nirvana shirts, as if they suddenly had discovered that there were bands in the 90's (bad bands usually, but still ) They think they're so cool lol.

 

And in fact all generations do that... I'm very into the late 70's/80's music myself although i was far too young to remember anything. It seems like at one point, you just go back to your roots musically speaking and start enjoying the decade you were born in. Funny.

 

first im sorry to quote you all the time, its just that everything you write kills me, but i hope you no its not because its you, and lol i would have bet that you were a teacher anyway those students you are talking about, they just dont wear those shirts because they think they are being cool, its because at this age they discover that a man, a singer, a genius, KNEW and WROTE about the anger you feel when you are a teenager, because he felt it himself... the rage in your blood, but not everyone feels that rage and i think thats why some never loved nirvana, its really violent and confused,like the way you feel, the way some people feel at this age.

 

and diana, yes they ripped off the pixies, kurt joked about it like65656 times, so what?? they did change something and there was more to it than just post punk, oh god, that was-is one of the most important part of music history. its like mika, people just might say that he is only post pop and that he is ripping off all those bands from the sixties, seventies but there is much more to it, kurt created grunge music and mika power-dirty pop, look its like eddie veder and kurt and mika and yelle and all the tectonik movement, pearl jam cant be associated in anyway to nirvana just like tectonik cant be associated to mika just because he is wearing slims etc.

 

and oh whatever.....

 

 

and no i didnt watch the documentary, Nicki, because i must admit i dont watch tv but let me guess, they were exactly saying what you wrote, right? all you wrote had been said 56655665 times and again even by kurt, even the fact that his lyrics didnt mean anything but thats bullsh*t and courtney agrees, now i only trust my ears, my heart, spirit and in this particular case history....

 

now for those who loves him...

 

 

kurt once wrote one of the most beautiful love letters i ever read, its so poetic. there is not a single cliché in it. its perfect without any pretention, so simple and so perfect, he had an amazing writing...really. i especially love the end.tomorrow ill try to find pics of his hands, he had such beautiful hands really.

 

so here it is for those who are interested, the letter:

 

when I say I love you I am not ashamed, nor will anyone ever ever come close to intimidating, persuading, ect me into thinking otherwise. I wear you on my sleeve. I spread you out wide open with the wing span of a peacock, yet all too often with the attention span of a bullet to the head. I think its pathetic that the entire world looks upon a person with patience and a calm demeanor as the desired model citizen. Yet there's something to be said about the ability to explain oneself with a toned down, tune deaf tone. And I will say it: I am what they call slow. How I metamorphosised from hyperactive to cement is for lack of a better knife to the throat, uh, annoying, aggravating, confusing, as dense as cement. cement holds no other minerals. You can't even find fools gold in it. Its strictly man made and you've taught me that its okay to be a man and in the classic mans world I parade you around proudly like the ring on my finger, which also holds no mineral.

 

Love Kurt

 

if the last paragraph is not genius than i dont no.

[Niki27]

No Pam, it was a pro-Nirvanna documentary. If I can 'label' it this way. It was about their ascension in the music world, and how Cobain felt bad about it because he somehow had the feeling he had sold his soul. Also about this dilemma of his, torn between enraged harcore and popmusic, how he wanted to write ballads, but was ashamed to present them to his fans cause he wasn't sure they'd like them.

 

There was also interesting bits about the production part in the studio, the way they recorded Kurt's voice on In Utero etc, his fascination for the techniques used by the Beatles, and more.

 

They obviously mentionned The Pixies, and Pearl Jam, and all the grunge bands that marked this very same period of time, and how Nirvanna had ripped off the Pixies, which they admitted themselves, saying at one point they didnt even want SLTS to be released because of that, but it was mostly about their friendship with REM, how Michael Stipe tried to help Kurt at the end, but failed, etc.

 

It was a very interesting documentary, really, too bad you didnt see it.

 

As for the students and what I said about the generation thing, trust me, they all have 90's bands tees, not only grunge or metal bands, so I doubt it has anything to do with the message in itself.

[Pam Travers]

It was about their ascension in the music world, and how Cobain felt bad about it because he somehow had the feeling he had sold his soul. Also about this dilemma of his, torn between enraged harcore and popmusic, how he wanted to write ballads, but was ashamed to present them to his fans cause he wasn't sure they'd like them.

 

There was also interesting bits about the production part in the studio, the way they recorded Kurt's voice on In Utero etc, his fascination for the techniques used by the Beatles, and more.

 

 

As for the students and what I said about the generation thing, trust me, they all have 90's bands tees, not only grunge or metal bands, so I doubt it has anything to do with the message in itself.

 

 

thanks for the sum up. too bad i missed the technical part.

 

and its very true, he was kind of obsessed with that, i mean the fans, some of his fans...he was really sad that some people in the front row at his concerts represented exactly everything he stood against....and he hated them and it made him sad.

 

 

as for the students i think you underestimate people.

[Niki27]

I don't see why saying every generation has a thing for their decade music is underestimating people lol. I'm myself fond of the 80's as a period, not because it's GOOD, I know most of the 80's music is crap! But it's your roots somehow, what your older sis and bros listened too, the first records you played, etc etc. So when you grow older, you start liking these songs, because you somehow grew up with them, even if you're too young to remember properly, it's in you.

[Pam Travers]

because everything is not about the generation thing, i myself dont work that way. Whenever i meet a teen wearing a tshirt of their favourite band-artist, most of the time they are damn aware of waht it is and what it means, those people on their tshirts are their heroes, not just something they grew up with randomly, they found them and loved them, its not random. but maybe i only meet the cool ones who knows.

[Kata]

because everything is not about the generation thing, i myself dont work that way. Whenever i meet a teen wearing a tshirt of their favourite band-artist, most of the time they are damn aware of waht it is and what it means, those people on their tshirts are their heroes, not just something they grew up with randomly, they found them and loved them, its not random. but maybe i only meet the cool ones who knows.

 

can't see why it's that damn uncool to just like something randomly without having to hero-worship anyone. When I was a (very uncool) teenager, I randomly liked The Cure - sure I liked the music, but I mainly liked them because everyone else did and because Robert Smith has nice hair - and then of course because it's what I grew up listening to - I could not then and I still can not now remember the titles of more than about ten of their songs and I certainly wouldn't be able to tell you anything about the band members, but I still like them - however random and uncool it might be

[violet_sky]

Everybody listened to Nirvana when I was a teenager. So did I, yet I admit that I mainly stuck with 'Unplugged in NY'. I still listen to that one every now and then, although Nirvana is definitely one of those bands that are linked with a certain period of my life (and really not because they transported such a vital message, more because it happened to be what people listened to at that time *shrug*) and thus don't sound 'right' these days anymore to me personally.

But that's probably just me.

Oh and by the way, strangely I can't recall anybody in my environment freaking out or wanting to kill themselves after Kurt Cobain died. I've been thinking about that recently after having read 'About a boy'... but well, we were probably too shallow at the time to get the whole impact of it.

[Pam Travers]

Everybody listened to Nirvana when I was a teenager. So did I, yet I admit that I mainly stuck with 'Unplugged in NY'. I still listen to that one every now and then, although Nirvana is definitely one of those bands that are linked with a certain period of my life (and really not because they transported such a vital message, more because it happened to be what people listened to at that time *shrug*) and thus don't sound 'right' these days anymore to me personally.

But that's probably just me.

Oh and by the way, strangely I can't recall anybody in my environment freaking out or wanting to kill themselves after Kurt Cobain died. I've been thinking about that recently after having read 'About a boy'... but well, we were probably too shallow at the time to get the whole impact of it.

 

 

yeah thats absolutely what nicki said...the exact opposite of what i think, so no, its not "just you" but it might be "just me" here...

 

so appenratly some people just listens music because " its there", well...

 

strangely i can recall people who attempted suicide, it must be a question of environement YOU ARE DAMN RIGHT

 

maybe its about being active or passive or something also

 

vital...i love that word...and it makes me think that ...whatever, your probably right anyway, sometimes i must just accept the fact that ive always been in a rock background with people for whom all this is VITAL

[Niki27]

I do listen to the music 'that's there', yes lol. I listen to the radio, and even if 50% of what's played is just crap, and another 49% is just average, sometimes, you'll hear a gem, so it's worth it.

 

I don't see music as something you have to overanalyze nor take seriously. When i wake up at 5AM to go to work, I don't wanna hear about how hard life is, I wanna play some random energetic tunes, or Mika, even if "sucking on your lollipop" isn't like a vital message lol.

 

So yes, maybe it's just me, maybe Cobain's lyrics or music never connected with me because I've never felt the same kind of inner anger he had and because - and it's a strictly personal opinion here - I want music that makes me forget about my daily problems instead of putting the stress on them. But it's just me, and if that makes me random, well I'm very proud of it lol.

[Pam Travers]

I do listen to the music 'that's there', yes lol. I listen to the radio, and even if 50% of what's played is just crap, and another 49% is just average, sometimes, you'll hear a gem, so it's worth it.

 

I don't see music as something you have to overanalyze nor take seriously. When i wake up at 5AM to go to work, I don't wanna hear about how hard life is, I wanna play some random energetic tunes, or Mika, even if "sucking on your lollipop" isn't like a vital message lol.

 

So yes, maybe it's just me, maybe Cobain's lyrics or music never connected with me because I've never felt the same kind of inner anger he had and because - and it's a strictly personal opinion here - I want music that makes me forget about my daily problems instead of putting the stress on them. But it's just me, and if that makes me random, well I'm very proud of it lol.

 

 

i HATE overanalyse with passion but...

 

nirvana wasnt about how hard life is....it WAS life. yeah maybe not yours, maybe not violets...and it was full of energy, not something that brings you down and.... yeah its probably a question of teenage angst, you have it or not but it doesnt change anything, whether you were connected or not to the fact that he was clearly a genius, his writing.

 

and yeah thats probably what people want, forget about- escape-

its like reading novels or reading biographies...but i wont get into that...

 

i agree that i dont wake up at 5 in the morning, so when i wake up

i dont listen to the radio so i cant tell but...take rihanna, you can forget about your troubles with her music, its well done and there is nothing much to it but on the other side you have mika who is a genius...well i dont know what im trying to say...maybe it doesnt change everything at the end....who gives a XXXX after all???maybe that i dont analyze music when i listen to it but when i hear something different i have the need to go further, i want TO KNOW and thats actually why im here, and dont suck too hard on your lolipop or life s gonna get you down is probably one of the most famous message of all time in love history, sex will get you down so dont grow too fast...and thats where i think that he is really clever, there is more to him than a cool poppy jumpy sound that can cheer people up in the morning... if he would say things the way they are like kurt used to do , it wouldnt work at all now in the two thousands, in the zeros, thats where he wins-

[Pam Travers]

yep I'm still angry with that damned destiny,so useful for MTV and the poor widow

Like Amy Wino had the most beautiful voice and he was really talented as songwriter..double waste..Kc was another that used music first to yell out his pain, no way he was thinking bout how to follow music industry willings for making money.

 

Like Pam, I can't believe its just a matter of life similarities or "I listened to that at the time coz twas on radio and my friends cd collection, so yeah I pretty enjoy it" to recognize someones greatness.

Don't tell me Nirvana made "technical" ugly music, they played with passion without too much "plans" behind, that's the only important thing.

 

wow you are being so eighties by quoting yourself,lol

 

yes, not like mika im so angry at THIS, it would be so possible NOW, in this era to leave universal and all this ****ty industry and be a splendid independant Mr Loyal but it doesnt seem to be the way he is, im really pissed off that marketing is always the word that comes back when it comes to mika.

 

and like you and my own self i believe that you dont have to like something or belong to a specific generation to recognize greatness...i dont listen to kurt anymore, but sometimes i read his notes and unrealeased stuff.

 

and yes it is pure pop, just the same way mika is rock

 

i just read an interview in a magazine about an american writer who were criticizing a french writer i LOVE and he was saying that he wasnt genius at all, only some depressed person who needed a good therapy and some pills...then he criticized g.debord and then i understood that he could never understand...maybe this writer he is criticizing IS depressive but it doesnt mean in anyway that he is not a genius besides, thast ridiculous

 

in his honour i will just quote him an say fck to this amercian writer

 

...childhood is a brief eternity...

 

dont be scared of happiness because it doesnt exist - yeah i no this line is just too famous but its still very good plus my favourite lines are in french, there is poetry in some people s prose, some people seem to be unsensitive to that, thats weird.

[Pam Travers]

or maybe I'm simply egotical and don't wanna just edit my post but have the last say on this touchy thread

and I hate posting with mobile phones

 

 

nothing is totally good or bad dammit

 

 

wow you are posting from your mobile,lmao, always new you were living with your time, you are so modern,lol

 

 

yeah life is as ugly as its beautiful, have a look at my comment in the madonna thread and if you are somewhere near a sea please drop your mobile and make a dive for me, i miss the sea so much.

 

xxxx

[Carol]

I don't listen to "the grunge era albums" often coz they're too powerful...or maybe I'm too sensitive. I won't say some are depressive tunes, its just that u can't avoid to think about the sadness of the authors life. And especially the '90 environment was quite a bad one for young generation.

 

I love NIRVANA, I feel like... I don't know... Kurt gets me. Just like Greta here, I don't listen to it often cause the music is too powerful. Same thing happens with Jeff Buckley... but that's another story.

[Diana]

and diana, yes they ripped off the pixies, kurt joked about it like65656 times, so what?? they did change something and there was more to it than just post punk, oh god, that was-is one of the most important part of music history. its like mika, people just might say that he is only post pop and that he is ripping off all those bands from the sixties, seventies but there is much more to it, kurt created grunge music and mika power-dirty pop, look its like eddie veder and kurt and mika and yelle and all the tectonik movement, pearl jam cant be associated in anyway to nirvana just like tectonik cant be associated to mika just because he is wearing slims etc.

 

I never said that they didn't change something but you don't have to be a musical genius to do that.. I don't dispute their influence on young people of many generations, I do however question their hero status which I don't think they deserve.

 

No Pam, it was a pro-Nirvanna documentary. If I can 'label' it this way. It was about their ascension in the music world, and how Cobain felt bad about it because he somehow had the feeling he had sold his soul. Also about this dilemma of his, torn between enraged harcore and popmusic, how he wanted to write ballads, but was ashamed to present them to his fans cause he wasn't sure they'd like them.

 

There was also interesting bits about the production part in the studio, the way they recorded Kurt's voice on In Utero etc, his fascination for the techniques used by the Beatles, and more.

 

They obviously mentionned The Pixies, and Pearl Jam, and all the grunge bands that marked this very same period of time, and how Nirvanna had ripped off the Pixies, which they admitted themselves, saying at one point they didnt even want SLTS to be released because of that, but it was mostly about their friendship with REM, how Michael Stipe tried to help Kurt at the end, but failed, etc.

 

It was a very interesting documentary, really, too bad you didnt see it.

 

As for the students and what I said about the generation thing, trust me, they all have 90's bands tees, not only grunge or metal bands, so I doubt it has anything to do with the message in itself.

 

I saw that documentary, it was great indeed.

[Pam Travers]

you don't have to be a musical genius to do that.. I don't dispute their influence on young people of many generations, I do however question their hero status which I don't think they deserve.

 

 

ok, first, are we talking about genius or heroism? those are two different things.

 

and what, because you can easily play it on guitar, its not genius?lol.

do you know that the paintings of Van Gogh are REALLY easy to reproduct?

does it make him a non-genius?

 

again the pure genius of it was the pure power of his music wit such a musical simplicity blabla but it you dont see the point im over it.

 

are musical geniuses people who use dodecaphony or something?

 

and to answer my own question, kurt was both, a genius and a hero unlike mika who is *only* a genius

 

 

*a hero is someone that, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice – that is, heroism*

[Diana]

ok, first, are we talking about genius or heroism? those are two different things.

 

and what, because you can easily play it on guitar, its not genius?lol.

do you know that the paintings of Van Gogh are REALLY easy to reproduct?

does it make him a non-genius?

 

again the pure genius of it was the pure power of his music wit such a musical simplicity blabla but it you dont see the point im over it.

 

are musical geniuses people who use dodecaphony or something?

 

and to answer my own question, kurt was both, a genius and a hero unlike mika who is *only* a genius

 

 

*a hero is someone that, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice – that is, heroism*

 

In this case I feel heroism and genius are intertwined. People consider him a hero because they think what he did was genius.

 

Let's just agree to disagree because no matter how many arguments you use, I don't and never will think he's a musical genius.

The fact that you do feel that way is your choice and your opinion.

Luckily opinions differ, otherwise the world would be a boring place.

 

Also, I don't think Mika is a hero by any means, nor a genius.

[Pam Travers]

In this case I feel heroism and genius are intertwined. People consider him a hero because they think what he did was genius.

 

Let's just agree to disagree because no matter how many arguments you use, I don't and never will think he's a musical genius.

The fact that you do feel that way is your choice and your opinion.

Luckily opinions differ, otherwise the world would be a boring place.

 

Also, I don't think Mika is a hero by any means, nor a genius.

 

no people think he was a genius because of his writing and his music and they see him as a hero because he felt like he sold his soul to the business music industry and finally killed himself in the name of his ideal...thats why people see him as a hero, werther its the truth or not.

 

and im not doing any kind of proselytism, i dont care about converting people, he is dead you know, it would only be more money in the pockets of universal.

 

i often think that if people were more similar it would be a better world but dont quote me on that, it has nothing to do with the previous debate, just a thought.

 

and yeah, sure, i totally agree that we cant possibly agree

[rockinbabzz]

While I do think Kurt Cobain and Nirvana are being over-idolised, I have to say that the strength of their songs IS actually the fact that they are so simple. I sort of grew up listening to them and still like them, but I fail to see why Kurt should be worshipped as if he were Jesus himself. He was a talented singer and songwriter, like there are many.

[Pam Travers]

While I do think Kurt Cobain and Nirvana are being over-idolised, I have to say that the strength of their songs IS actually the fact that they are so simple. I sort of grew up listening to them and still like them, but I fail to see why Kurt should be worshipped as if he were Jesus himself. He was a talented singer and songwriter, like there are many.

 

 

absolutely...

 

 

and kurt is being idolised because he represents the christ thats exactly why people see him as jesus,lol...he is a christic figure, he killed himself in the name of his ideals...which is not the case of every talented songwriter or singer, he went to extreme in the name of purity. its really easy to understand, heroism often includes death. not everyone can be over-idolized.

[rockinbabzz]

absolutely...

 

 

and kurt is being idolised because he represents the christ thats exactly why people see him as jesus,lol...he is a christic figure, he killed himself in the name of his ideals...which is not the case of every talented songwriter or singer, he went to extreme in the name of purity. its really easy to understand, heroism often includes death. not everyone can be over-idolized.

 

I completely understand WHY he's being over-idolised, but I don't think he 'killed himself in the name of his ideas', he was suffering from manic depression and comitted suicide. That doesn't take anything away from the fact that he was a great musician, but surely it shouldn't add an extra attraction. There's nothing cool or heroic about suicide imo.

[Pam Travers]

I completely understand WHY he's being over-idolised, but I don't think he 'killed himself in the name of his ideas', he was suffering from manic depression and comitted suicide. That doesn't take anything away from the fact that he was a great musician, but surely it shouldn't add an extra attraction. There's nothing cool or heroic about suicide imo.

 

oh ok, sorry i xplained.

 

in theory a suicide can be heroic though...

, but what makes him heroic is that he was ready to sacrifice himself in the name of his ideaLs, thats the heroic part, not he suicide itself.

 

would you die for your ideaLs?

he did.

at least thats what the story tolds. werther its true or not, i wont discuss it, its not my personal buisiness.

[rockinbabzz]

What were those 'ideals' that he sacrificed himself for? He was a suicidal mentally ill person, nothing to with ideals in the slightest.

[Niki27]

Suicided in name of his ideals? Like Jesus? Wth? I shouldn't even comment on this. The comparision is just surreal.

 

What ideals? What did he bring to the world except for a few songs?

He was pissed at becoming commercial, fair enough, there were other ways to deal with that without leaving a Baby daughter behind. Great ideals.

He was just depressive and ****ed up in the head because of the cocaine he sniffed. No ideals there.