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Any atheists ?


Pam Travers

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Whats that silly story about catholics having to pay more taxes in Belgium? :blink: Did you express yourself right, Greta... cause as far as I know, belgium doesnt treat its citizens nor any foreigner differently, whatever their religion is. Now, I'm waiting for facts, legal texts, or whatever.

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I believe that's so, because some countries here in Europe have laws by which people who are Catholics have to pay extra taxes.

 

Oh really?? which ones?

Trust me, if i had to pay extra taxes, I would know it :naughty:

I can't believe my eyes... really XDDDDDD

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I've been baptised so I guess I'm a christian non-believer :mf_rosetinted: I really don't give a hoot about religion, I don't even care enough to officially leave the church or anything - it doesn't really bother me to be a christian, came in handy when I needed a good school for junior - don't live in the most fantastic neighbourhood, so it's fab that she can go to a christian school with a reasonable number of children in each class :mf_rosetinted:

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on the materialistic side for example if i go to work in Belgium i've to pay more taxes because i'm registered as Catholic and so on with silly bureucratic stuff..i don't care of popes anathema in response to my apostasis,its just a matter of coherence,to launch a message like "respect laicism". Priests and such are just a source of psycosis imo

 

Lol what the hell?!

I'm not from Belgium myself but a quick glance at the Belgian constitution tells me that Belgium, just like the Netherlands, is a country where state and religion are seperated.. Meaning they can't have laws based on religious beliefs and therefore can't force a certain group to pay more taxes.

 

This is from the Belgian constitution and says it all really..

 

Article 20 [No Forced Religion]

"No one can be obliged to contribute in any way whatsoever to the acts and ceremonies of a religion, nor to observe the days of rest."

 

I believe that's so, because some countries here in Europe have laws by which people who are Catholics have to pay extra taxes.

 

Where? Why? How?

I really don't get where you heard this.

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Kata, i fully agree with you. That's how I basically feel.

 

Greta, I'm really interested in what you could teach me about the belgian legislation, weirdly enough, i read the same constitution diana quoted...

 

As for the general direction of this thread, I will ask EVERYONE to show some respect, without attacking others's beliefs or lack of beliefs.

Saying a religion - whatever it is - is source of psychosis is IMO a lack of respect. You're free to think it, but as we say in my lovely country "your freedom stops where the others freedom starts".--> don't be insulting.

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I am also an atheist. My family are quite strict catholics and I was brought up being forced (and I mean forced) to believe and to behave like a catholic.

This means that I was baptised/given the communion and even the confirmation against my will.

 

As someone who could not manage (as hard as I actually tried) to believe in a god, and even less in a church, you can imagine how difficult and frustrating things were.

I know that my family were doing it with their best intention, but this is something that one often finds in believers: they try very -too- hard to preach and convert others, and help them "see the light".

It's quite bad when you're the poor little one caught in the middle of it, ie the victim.

 

It took me many years to manage to put my foot down and refuse to go to church, to church school, and to finally voice my own opinions. Not because i didn't try before, I did all the time, but I was just forced to go to these things and that was it, no option was available to refuse. You obeyed and that is how it was.

Lovely faith this :naughty:.

 

And yes, I spoke to manby priests telling them that I did NOT believe and they ignored it and just happily continued trying to convince me that this was the way forward.

 

Aaanyway finally when I was around 16-17 I broke away of it all, but the whole thing scarred me quite a bit and I have since felt very bitter when it comes to faith, and especially such a constrictive one as the catholic one.

 

I wish that they would apply the "live and let live" motto to be honest; it would have saved me a lot of heartache.

 

I really don't want to go on and on, as it will get very boring, but i have lots of stories on the matter which mean that I am quite passionate about the whole topic.

 

Oh ,and did I mention that I had a lot of contact with members of the Opus Dei? Yes, it does exist in real life, and is not only a novel, and yes, they are as bad or worse than the book/film implies.

 

Again, I have a lot of personal experience (very close) in this field.

 

About the taxes that Greta was talking about, I am thinking that maybe she means something like what the Spanish system has in place?

 

Spain is obviously a country where church and state are separate, but there are certain (majority based) faiths that have special agreements with the state, like contracts, and when one does their tax calculations at the end of each tax year you can choose that part of your tax goes to either the church, or to "other social causes" like certain ONG's, or charities, etc...

 

I guess that this is what Greta means.

 

Still, I don't think that the church or anyone can force you to put the money towards them- you can happily choose the other causes and nobody will know or be able to do anyhting about it.

Maybe she is talking about a moral obligation, or the feeling of "having to do it"?

 

 

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About the taxes, in Germany, if you are registered with one of the 'big' churches, you do pay a church tax which makes usually 8 or 9% of the income tax. :thumbdown: As far as I know there is no way to donate the money to an alternate institution of your choice.

The only way to save that money or spend it in a more useful way would be to leave the church. Not the stupidest idea IMHO.

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About the taxes, in Germany, if you are registered with one of the 'big' churches, you do pay a church tax which makes usually 8 or 9% of the income tax. :thumbdown: As far as I know there is no way to donate the money to an alternate institution of your choice.

The only way to save that money or spend it in a more useful way would be to leave the church. Not the stupidest idea IMHO.

 

:shocked:I find that preposterous!:thumbdown:

 

When you say registered, what do you mean? What sort of registration or membership is it, and where is it recorded?

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I'm not really sure what to believe. I think there is something, i'm just not sure.

I'm no religion at the moment, although i was christened, against my will. i just don't feel anything towards christianity, nor any other religion.

 

So i don't know if that makes me athiest, i'm just not sure.

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I am sort of. I dont really belive in anything, so I guess I am, but I dont belive that you just rot when you die. So I sort of 'half' am an atheist. I belive parts of everything really.

 

yeah thats me too phunks ... apart from mine was an essay haha :naughty:

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I personally think that religion preached by parents in brainwashing. like my friends mother replied to her (after my friend asked why she had to believe in god) 'Because it makes you a better person' um, so that means I suck because I dont belive in things like that?:naughty: I mean COME ON I would never tell a child that.

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I personally think that religion preached by parents in brainwashing. like my friends mother replied to her (after my friend asked why she had to believe in god) 'Because it makes you a better person' um, so that means I suck because I dont belive in things like that?:naughty: I mean COME ON I would never tell a child that.

I think this is not a clever thing to say... It's also the feeling I'd get if someone told me that; that since I'm not religious, I'm not a good person. It's a bit like when children ask "how do you make a baby?" and parents avoid the real explanation...

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I personally think that religion preached by parents in brainwashing. like my friends mother replied to her (after my friend asked why she had to believe in god) 'Because it makes you a better person' um, so that means I suck because I dont belive in things like that?:naughty: I mean COME ON I would never tell a child that.

 

yeah , it is , i agree ... well the thing is i havent attended church since i was 5 ... and personally i wouldnt preach something to my own child that i havent preached in my own life , but again vice versa for other parents if they believe ... he can be a good person without having other people beliefs drilled into him i believe , but just for him to keep an open mind is what i want :)

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I think this is not a clever thing to say... It's also the feeling I'd get if someone told me that; that since I'm not religious, I'm not a good person. It's a bit like when children ask "how do you make a baby?" and parents avoid the real explanation...

 

I read the quote wrong before and deleted it , and agree with you too :thumb_yello:

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Oh really?? which ones?

Trust me, if i had to pay extra taxes, I would know it :naughty:

I can't believe my eyes... really XDDDDDD

 

Lol what the hell?!

I'm not from Belgium myself but a quick glance at the Belgian constitution tells me that Belgium, just like the Netherlands, is a country where state and religion are seperated.. Meaning they can't have laws based on religious beliefs and therefore can't force a certain group to pay more taxes.

 

This is from the Belgian constitution and says it all really..

 

Article 20 [No Forced Religion]

"No one can be obliged to contribute in any way whatsoever to the acts and ceremonies of a religion, nor to observe the days of rest."

 

 

 

Where? Why? How?

I really don't get where you heard this.

 

See Violet Sky's quote below. That's what I was talking about. There was once an idea of having a ''law'' like that here, in our country, as well. And all of those who are registered as Catholics should pay extra taxes. And believe me, I know what a laic country is, or at least what it should be, but I don't really think it also works in practice. Too bad. So there's no need to laugh and think that I'm a complete fool for saying something like that, but that sorf of tax exists. Maybe not in Belgium and the Netherlands, but it does in Germany, and I think that it also does in Austria. But of course it's not obligatory, you have to pay it if you're registered as Catholic.

 

About the taxes, in Germany, if you are registered with one of the 'big' churches, you do pay a church tax which makes usually 8 or 9% of the income tax. :thumbdown: As far as I know there is no way to donate the money to an alternate institution of your choice.

The only way to save that money or spend it in a more useful way would be to leave the church. Not the stupidest idea IMHO.

 

When you say registered, what do you mean? What sort of registration or membership is it, and where is it recorded?

I believe that they consider you as registered when you are baptised + when you get all the other sacraments. That way you enter 'the wonderful world of catholic church'.

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I think this is not a clever thing to say... It's also the feeling I'd get if someone told me that; that since I'm not religious, I'm not a good person. It's a bit like when children ask "how do you make a baby?" and parents avoid the real explanation...

 

But my friend is 13, not 5.:mf_rosetinted: SO basically she looks at me like a freak when I say I dont believe in god.

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I'm an atheist. I stopped believing in god when I stopped believing in Father Christmas - I figured if they lied about one, then the other probably wasn't true either!:newyear:

 

I don't think anyone can ever know all the answers to life, the universe etc. but I'd rather trust views based on evidence and experimentation and logical thought than some unchangeable religious teaching.

 

XX N

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See Violet Sky's quote below. That's what I was talking about. There was once an idea of having a ''law'' like that here, in our country, as well. And all of those who are registered as Catholics should pay extra taxes. And believe me, I know what a laic country is, or at least what it should be, but I don't really think it also works in practice. Too bad. So there's no need to laugh and think that I'm a complete fool for saying something like that, but that sorf of tax exists. Maybe not in Belgium and the Netherlands, but it does in Germany, and I think that it also does in Austria. But of course it's not obligatory, you have to pay it if you're registered as Catholic.

 

Nobody's laughing at you or thinks you're a fool. I merely asked for an explanation.

 

Anyhoo, I just read up on this German tax thing and it says that this church tax is fully deductible.

So even though people who are registered with tax collecting churches (not all of them collect) have to pay taxes, they will get their money back.. So nobody's paying extra.

 

I don't agree with this though cuz it means that the state is actually supporting the Catholic church.

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