Surrogacy, sperm donation, adoption and related topics

[Prisca]

Since it seems to me that this topic won't be finished anytime soon, I thought I'd make a thread with it instead of making off topic in Mika's social media threat.

 

23 hours ago, Mikasister said:

 

23 hours ago, Anna Ko Kolkowska said:

I will write more tomorrow. It's late now.

Today just two photos of Marc-Olivier Fogiel's book. And his thank you to Mika.

The movie was based on his book "Qu'est ce qu'elle a ma famille ?" Which can be translated as "What problem do you have with my family?". 

Or in a different way "We have a normal family".

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Anna Ko Kolkowska said:

 

I don't know much about the surrogate pregnancy and my vocabulary on this subject is poor. So I will not go too deep into it. In most of European countries - like in France - this program is illegal.

Some of you know that Marc-Olivier is Mika's friend for many years.

He is gay and lives with his husband Francois. They have two daughters born in USA thanks to a surrogate program which is legal in certains states.

In his book he tells his own story but as well stories of several couples - hetero and homosexual. 

He didn't write it for himself but for all there families and for those who are looking the way to become parent.

Yesterday Mika was watching on France 2 a movie based on Marc-Oliveir's book.

As we had our Insta Live I was able to watch only the second part. It was telling two stories:

one - based on Marc-Olivier and Francois case - names were changed, the surrogate program was in Kanada not USA.

The second story was about a couple which couldn't have their own children and they decided as well to take a chance in a surrogate program.

From the book and from the movie we can learn about problems people have to overcome. We can see how they struggle with the system, with the law, but as well with their own psychological ups and downs while going through long months/years of the battle. 

 

When I read the book in 2018 I thought that it can be a milestone in the process of changes. And I think I was right. Now we have a movie followed by a debate in the TV studio with a heterosexual woman, a gay who made the same way as Marc-Olivier, a grandmother of surrogate pregnancy twins, an anthropologist and a woman - deputy in the french government. The conversation showed this big imbalance between point of view of the citizens wanting to have children and the government which tries first of all not allow the commercialisation of human body and children trade. 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Aki Celeste said:

 

I'm not very knowledgeable myself on this topic - I didn't even know that it was illegal in most parts of Europe! - but it's one that's interested me over the years. I'm actually trying to address the topic somewhat in one of my current writing projects, so it's super interesting to me that Mika is shining a spotlight on his friend at this time.

 

I feel like this topic is still considered somewhat taboo, or at least is not often discussed, even while it's legal here in the US. Does anyone remember that show The New Normal (helmed by Ryan Murphy, the show-runner for Glee)? That's pretty much the only "mainstream" media depiction of surrogacy, specifically for gay couples, that I can  recall seeing over the past 10 years, and I'm not sure how well it landed with its viewers.

 

It's encouraging to hear that Marc-Olivier and François are raising further awareness around this highly fraught issue, and I hope it continues to open up conversations that don't devolve into hate or misguided judgment on people who already have enough obstacles to parenthood set up for them as it is.

 

1 hour ago, kreacher said:

Thanks for explaining more @Anna Ko Kolkowska I didn't think I even knew surrogacy was illegal anywhere. Is surrogacy illegal just for gay couples or for everyone?

 

i remember this show! I watched it every week.

 

 

1 hour ago, Prisca said:

It's illegal for everyone.

 

43 minutes ago, Hero said:

Seems its legal in the UK via non-profit clinics, but there's an issue in that the law doesn't recognise the surrogacy agreement so if one party changes their mind there's no resolution. 🙄

 

27 minutes ago, Anna Ko Kolkowska said:

Yes, as mentioned @Prisca  it's illegal for everyone. 

There are big surrogacy clinics in Ukraine. As well in India. Used to be in Vietnam. Usually women from these countries "sell" their bodies for living.

 

For single men and homosexual couples in France (well, maybe in other countries as well) adoption is quasi impossible.

So if they want to have children they have to go to USA or Canada or Ukraine. It's a long process and it costs a lot of money.

You have to pay for all medical care and usually the surrogate stops working and has to take care of herself, so the future parents pay all costs/charges for her. As it was said yesterday in the debate for ex. un USA there are many surrogates who are Christians and they just want to help others to have babies - it's not about the money.

More than 50% of future parents are gay couples. The other rest are heterosexual couples with fertility or medical problems.

 

 

 

[Aki Celeste]

50 minutes ago, Prisca said:

Since it seems to me that this topic won't be finished anytime soon, I thought I'd make a thread with it instead of making off topic in Mika's social media threat.

 

Ah, thank you! I was wondering if there was such a thread elsewhere, and now we have one.  

 

52 minutes ago, Prisca said:

There are big surrogacy clinics in Ukraine. As well in India. Used to be in Vietnam. Usually women from these countries "sell" their bodies for living.

 

This is definitely one of the sticking points that I've heard brought up as an argument against surrogacy, about how it can harm disadvantaged people and cost an insane amount of money for the would-be parents. I can't help but see a parallel to the arguments for and against making sex work legal, which is another one of those thorny issues that doesn't have an easy answer. Regulation seems to be a key point for arguments in favor of legalizing, but it's not always easy to do, particularly in countries that already suffer from a high level of oversight or unrest.

 

What I'm most interested in understanding (for the moment, anyhow) is the gradual shift away from adoptions, which may have led to an increase in demand for surrogacy. My research is still limited at this point, but it seems to me that as economic conditions improve, particularly for people with unplanned pregnancies, they are less likely to want to give their child up for adoption. Has anyone else noticed this general trend, or am I completely off-base here?

[MartaH]

For anyone interested in the topic, this is a short documentary I watched a few years ago, and I can't stop think about it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otvWPV_7cK0&t=345s

The procedure of selling/buying kids is more common than we think. 

[TinyLove_CJ]

Interesting topic to start here! 

 

  I never knew that surrogacy is illegal in some countries! I can't understand why, maybe someone from a country where it is illegal can explain further info about this? 🤔

 

  It is legal here in the UK (since 2008, I actually thought it would have been a lot longer than that!), I don't know the ins and outs of surrogacy so I don't know if people have to go through a clinic by law, but I have known a few people do it privately with a trusted friend. It is illegal to pay a cash sum upfront to a woman, but people can pay expenses for the pregnancy. No doubt there's a bit of a grey area concerning giving up money for a baby, a lot of trust definitely has to be involved!

 

And as @Hero already said, there's actually no legal obligation for a surrogate to give up the baby after birth. Even if the child isn't biologically theirs!

 

 

 

I don't know about other countries, but here it feels like adopting a child is always a last thought for people. It's either multiple rounds of IVF or surrogacy for people who can't have children, and then adoption is way down on the list. Which is a shame because I think here in the UK, because of how the economy is going down hill, there are probably more children currently in care that desperately need a loving home

 

 

20 hours ago, MartaH said:

The procedure of selling/buying kids is more common than we think. 

 

It's awful to think that this is still going on in the world, it's so sad.

Edited February 11, 2022 by TinyLove_CJ
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[Prisca]

18 minutes ago, TinyLove_CJ said:

I never knew that surrogacy is illegal in some countries! I can't understand why, maybe someone from a country where it is illegal can explain further info about this? 🤔

I guess because of the surrogate mother. It must be painful to have to give up a baby that has been growing in your womb for 9 months. I didn't know there were countries (like the UK) where it wasn't compulsory to give up the baby.

[Prisca]

Here is a world map of the conditions under which surrogacy is allowed in which country :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogacy_laws_by_country#/media/File:Maternidad_subrogada_situación_legal.PNG

[Anna Ko Kolkowska]

 

 

https://www.rtbf.be/article/guerre-en-ukraine-nous-navons-personne-a-qui-laisser-ces-bebes-nes-de-meres-porteuses-10956161?fbclid=IwAR1P-AeVFpLsG62lOduWYxbLayEYm2NljuMl3oZ3W2Hc9IfuCeISJNVAslA

 

 

As bombs rain down on Ukrainian cities, a maternity hospital is set up in a shelter to accommodate babies born by gestational surrogacy (GPA). Ukraine is one of the few states in the world where surrogacy is regulated and permitted by law.
According to the New York Times, there are almost 500 pregnant surrogate mothers in Ukraine for foreign clients. The country, however, does not allow the procedure for same-sex couples or single people.
The assisted reproduction center "BioTexCom", the largest in Ukraine, is the company that has managed the kyiv shelter since the start of the invasion. Underground, 21 babies await their biological parents in order to leave the country at war. However, the situation remains dangerous.
The shelter is just over 14 km from Irpin, a suburb that has already been the target of a Russian assault. All this complicates the arrival of parents, who are in countries such as Canada, Italy and China. Indeed, to confirm the nationality of babies, Ukrainian law requires the presence on site of the biological parents, explains the New York Times.

The assisted reproduction center "BioTexCom" suspended the program following the war. He now focuses on supporting pregnant women and the safe exfiltration of newborns from the country.

Even though clinic staff may try to transport babies to safer areas in western Ukraine, new parents still have to pick up babies inside the country for legal reasons…and some are afraid to cross the border, according to CNN.
"It all depends on the strength of the parents' desire," says Pechenoga, 51. "I met parents who came to Kyiv to pick up their baby. They had tears in their eyes. They had been waiting for their baby for 20 years, (so) of course they came no matter what."

But there are also "couples who are afraid, because there is a war here, and a serious war", notes the doctor.

Six nannies take care of the children in this kyiv shelter. When given the opportunity, they refused to flee in order to continue caring for the babies. "I would leave well (because) I also have my own family. But we have no one to leave these babies to," Yefimovich said.