chanleon

On 11/19/2020 at 8:12 PM, Jaela said:

@chanleon I TOLD YOU, i told you they were gonna use me as canon fodder 😭😭

Of all the people that commented on the thread they decided that im the antichrist 😂😂

If it was unclear to anyone i do not hate old people, i do not even hate the weird ones, i just dislike their behaviour 🤧

Y'all I can't believe I gotta say grow up but really there's so much hate here for what was supposed to be a coherent, diplomatic discussion (and it was!)

If y'all got enough enthusiasm to create a fake account to talk s**t at least have a chat with me, I started this  

Psa no one ever said anything about old people being disgusting? fam we all got grandparents it's not like different generations are aliens 

4 hours ago, carafon said:

 

Another thing is that the most we quote , comment and discuss  shocking posts publicly on SM  ,like saying "look at this , this is a bad person or a bad comment"  ,the most we're giving visibility to these stuff .I know it's sometimes hard to be silent when things are getting on our  nerves , but the more we give publicity , the higher the risk is that kids may see unapropriate stuff .

You're right. In fact I haven't shared any of it bc of that.

For the rest yea, absolutely, we could go on for hours if we had to contextualise every hate comment into topics, there's really an insult for everyone 🤦🏻‍♂️😂

2 hours ago, dcdeb said:

 

I do think that this is one of the most important points that we all should remember.

 

Stop and think that what you write on the internet is there forever, for anyone to see, comment on, share and reshare. I wish everyone would think twice before they post, not just on social media, but here as well. Hindsight is always 20/20, as they say, but I can't tell you how many fans write and ask us to delete their accounts now because of things they wrote a few years ago. I guess I make up for people who don't think twice, as I think 3, 4, 5 or more times before I say anything!

 

 

Yes! Especially today, I mean some of the adults may never be in this kind of situation but still a lot of employers look at applicants' social media profiles.. some things really may not make the best impression!  

4 hours ago, Jaela said:

Hey I have not said a word so far, don't make me canon fodder again now sjsjs

my vendetta has no age c:<

14 hours ago, XaviMarc said:

You keep saying the "age of their parents" as if when old people say something it's automatically not ok, but if I were to do the same it would be fine because I'm not old? I think there's something more behind this thread seems to be some vendetta about the older fan club members no matter what they do. Give them a break.

Thank you to everyone who commented.

I'd say the discussion is pretty much ending, I just want to clarify one more thing because apparently I need to.

The thing about age is that the popular belief was that adults are more responsible, mature and open to dialogue. So while it's equally weird when a 14 year old makes this kind of remarks, it's kind of creepy when adults make sexual remarks because you'd think they know better. We discussed this already and saw that a minority does not.

But no, I won't be coming for anyone older than 30 for vendetta, sorry. This whole fandom was created by great people and I really don't think this is some kind of war between generations. :')

The main point was think twice about posting instead of thinking that people you're making uncomfortable are just special snowflakes that are being too sensitive

10 hours ago, mellody said:

So yeah, if you say that those who write such comments aren't the ones who are discussing here, I suppose we mostly agree.  It's still good to have this discussion, because maybe those whom it concerns might read it at some point and think more before they post. 

Secondly, absolutely! No one of the people me or Jae or Susan or all of the others had in mind joined our discussion, which was predictable. However I was happy to discuss this on a forum and not in a DM chat with one person at a time because really great points were made, so thanks again for coming down to discuss with us!

Have a great day everyone

5 minutes ago, TinyLove_CJ said:

This is certainly an interesting discussion and one I think should be discussed openly and honestly, here at MFC I like to think that it's safe to do so.

 

This is my take on the subject, sorry in advance for it being quite long.

 

I agree with a lot of points already made in this thread. It can be uncomfortable to read sexualised comments about Mika (or anyone for that matter!) but I think this can be regardless of age. Whether this is minors who haven't learned about the dangers of social media or adults who actually do know better and do feel uncomfortable reading such comments.

 

Also when it comes to someone actually posting a comment, again I'm not too sure it's always down to age. Some minors (for me that's anyone under 18, I know some people might think differently) are going to want to explore sex, and I don't just mean the physical aspect of it. Young people may well project their feelings onto someone they admire, whether this is a celebrity or someone they're close to, it really doesn't matter because if they're posting something with a sexual intent then it's always going to be seen or read in the wrong way by the good people who know it's wrong and by people who can't emphasise with minors and just think what they're posting is disgusting. We should always try to emphasise with minors (and others!) when they post something sexualised, misconstrued or even unkind. We have no idea what they're going through and we should learn to be better on both sides.

 

- whole different story if someone's a bully on social media, bullies don't deserve empathy! -

 

As for adults posting sexualised comments, it's already been said here that we think they should know better but a lot of adults just don't. I wonder if a lot of adults will post something wrong because they feel like they can get away with it, because they're adults. It's so easy to use the anonymity of social media to be whoever you want to be and maybe not care about the consequences. Again it's also been mentioned that some adults just want to re-live their youth and continue to share their feelings, whether innocent or otherwise, so anyone part of an older generation will post whatever they want to so that they still feel young too. It does become a problem when adults have this attitude of not caring and refuse to learn and change their behaviour, that's when it can become almost creepy knowing that an adult is thinking that way about a celebrity and making it public. I've come across some comments on twitter where adults seem to be proud of what they say regardless of whether their married, single, straight or gay. It's these types of people that really don't care who sees their comments.

 

I also want to discuss a little about fanfiction which is also a controversial topic. It's all well and good writing a story about someone you admire but writing something that is NSFW and posting in a very public place online certainly causes some issues. I personally find this aspect of sexualising someone very uncomfortable. However I have seen some younger people start writing fanfic just as a way to get their feelings out, but then some people might be influenced by other things they've read (usually online) and start to explore adult content and put that into their own stories, creating new fantasies and in turn then sexualising the person they admire. Most Mika related fanfic I've come across has not been written by an innocent young person, there often disgusting sex stories written by adults. I do wish there was a way to stop people sharing such things online, especially on social media, if people want to write that kind of thing maybe find a private chat website or better yet keep it to themselves!

 

There's always going to be comments posted across social media that we, the good people, will think is wrong, offensive or down right disgusting. There's someone behind those comments, a complete stranger who we don't know. We can't change their behaviour. We can't physically stop them from pressing send on an indecent post. What we can do is report and block anyone that is continually posting horrible comments. We might all say "it's just all down to common sense", but everyone's version of common sense is going to be different. We can also continue this discussion and hope that anyone coming into this fandom (or any fandom really!) will understand and want to learn how to behave amongst everyone else.

 

Now a few things that are more personal to me:

 

In all the 13 years of following Mika, as much as I love him, I have never fantasised about him in a sexual way. Not when I was in my teens, not when I was discovering my sexuality and not into adulthood. I love him for who he is and as a human being that I aspire to be like. That's not to say that I don't recognise him as a sex symbol for other people and that doesn't mean I don't have sexual feelings for other celebrities, because I do! I'm only human and it's perfectly normal to feel a certain way about someone who can only ever be a dream. However I'm not going to start declaring my love for them online or saying what I think about certain celebrities in private, I would never do that!

 

When I post something I always take into consideration who's going to see it, I rarely post anything considered indecent but if I ever posted something NSFW then I would do so with a content warning. I've been wanting to have a writing thread here for a while now but I've had these irrational thoughts thinking that what if people use it to post weird fanfic. I know that's really silly to think about and I probably will launch a writing thread soon, but at least I'm being considerate of what minors (or anyone) might see here.

 

Lastly can Mika fans over on twitter stop with the furry hate? Someone posted a video recently of when Mika used to wear the animal costumes back in the day and instantly there were comments like "ew a furry, keep away from my dog" and "Mika wants to do it in costumes while thinking about animals, that's disgusting." I've been weary of saying this before now but I'm gonna say it, I'm part of the Furry community and we don't all fantasise about animals! I've wanted to mention this in the LGBT Younglings thread but I've been fearful of how people might react. It's something to discuss another time, I don't want to go off topic here about Furry community discourse. I can explain more about Furries later!

Thanks a lot for your comment, you explained everything clearly and I agree with you completely! 

I really don't think you can justify posting that kind of content without first checkin where it'll be and who can see it. I talked to quite a bunch of people these days, and yes, creepy is what I'd use to describe the general reaction. 

It's clearly impossible to prevent this content from being posted, but at least get a private instagram account or something similar! At least it will be viewed by people that want to.

32 minutes ago, miknikel said:

Chandler, would you allow me to post a more general question on your thread this evening. I could open another thread, but I'm not sure it would be useful to create too many question concerns of course the publications made on Mika.

If a mod can give her opinion, it will be welcome.

 

 

of course no worries! we're here to discuss, ask away 

2 hours ago, XaviMarc said:

I personally don't view MIKA in a sexual way at all so it's a bit cringe when I see comments like that. But at most I just won't read them and I'll literally forget about them. But to make a whole thread about it is cringe in itself. 

 

I see absolutely no need to condemn them for having a bit of fun on there it was a funny moment. Let them react how they want. You mention 11 year olds, but on Instagram the age limit is 13 so if they are 11 they shouldn't be on there anyway. Plus there is much worse on Instagram for children to find than those comments. 

 

We find what old people do cringe and they find what we do cringe. Just the way life is. Have a nice day. 

Okay I'll try to be as clear and concise as possible.

1. Sexualising is not fun. Sexualising considered in the sense of treating a person like an object for own (sexual) pleasure. 

2. Freedom of speech (you should be able to react how you want) has a limit and that is when it makes someone uncomfortable, when it attacks someone else's freedom etc.

 For example, I may have the right to comment whatever I want, but people also have the right to stay on social medias in peace. We're talking about comments or behaviours that are totally uncalled for. 

Ignoring is, therefore, not the solution: why don't we just ignore white supremacy or other issues? It sounds like saying "I won't care til it affects me directly" and I don't really agree with that mentality.

3. The limit for users on IG is 13. It has never really been respected, yes. But hey! 13 year olds are minors just like 11 year olds. Literally nothing changes. And I fear a 13 year old does not appreciate people the age of their parents' commenting "I'd want to f*** you" under posts of their favourite artist. Saying that there's worse things doesn't make this better.

My main idea is that saying "just ignore it and grow up" isn't the way you tackle things. I mean, Trump is cringe lately, that's how he is! 

I'm making exaggerated examples but it's sounding similarly to the ones related to this topc, so I hope I'm getting the point across.

I don't think making this thread is "cringe". I think it's plain disgusting that people are so frustrated about their lives that they live their sexual fantasies publicly, online, in a community of all ages, with a guy that never consented and -sorry ladies- never will.

33 minutes ago, miknikel said:

Sorry for the huge print that appeared and makes my reaction look aggressive. It was not intentional. Error of manipulation. Chanleon, I too would like to correct one thing, my answer was addressed only to Mellody's post and spoke about publication in general. The sexualization of anyone is not a subject that amuses me either, even if I don't go back on what I wrote first. I'm aware that I've gone a bit beyond the subject, but I just thought that your thread could also give us an opportunity to discuss this aspect. But maybe I shouldn't have mixed it all up.

 

Sorry then! I got that wrong and thought we were still talking of the original topic. No problem!

2 hours ago, mellody said:

 

I agree with you on that. And sorry Chandler if it came across to you as if I meant this with my comment about Mika humping things on stage. It's not what I mean. I can elaborate on this more tonight, when I have more time.

 

What I'm still trying to figure out in this discussion is what comments we're talking about here. It's a HUGE difference to me whether someone comments a pic of Mika with "😍" than saying "the things I'd do to him". No matter if they're 16 or 60. I thought with this thread Chandler might also be referring to my Tweets about the video of Mika opening his jacket to show his abs. But maybe that's a misinterpretation by me? I definitely don't want to defend any comments that are saying "Mika I want to f*** you" in some way.

 

As I said, I'll post more tonight, am busy now.

Hi! Sorry if I was unclear in any way.

There obviously is a wide range of comments and obviously and thankfully we're referring to a minority.

I actually meant to agree on the difference between an emoji and an explicit comment, that was badly explained from my side.

For the rest the post you quoted is still something I agree with, saying 

2 hours ago, mellody said:

that someone sexualising themselves does not give YOU the right to sexualise them.

Also, I really didn't mean to make you feel targeted, I did not refer to any of your posts in particular.

There are indeed some comments like the one you mentioned and censored yes, but there's not really something on your accounts that I wanted to criticise!  I hope I was a bit more clear

Just now, Susan Smith said:

It reminds me of this comment I responded to on Tiktok: 

if you don't want to be sexualised just act heterosexually and cover yourself up haha 🧚🏼‍♂️

Just now, Susan Smith said:

I think we should stop reducing this to just “a difference of humour” because it’s more that that. Using an excuse like “he sexualises himself already” is a common, misogynistic victim blaming phrase often flung around so I have to dismiss that. Also, whether or not mika finds it funny, this is less about what makes HIM uncomfortable and more about what’s morally decent/ comfortable for everyone. And I do not think many of the comments I personally am talking about were made with comedic intent 

Exactly.

I just realised when earlier someone said "he humps things on stage it's obvious that we have the right to sexualise him if he does it already": that's exactly what people say at rape victims? "She wears a short skirt so she's asking to be sexualised". Nope. Mika can hump all the bear costume wearing people in the world and it's still going to be uncomfortable for us and possibly Mika himself that people comment explicit sexual remarks. 

14 minutes ago, krysady said:

@chanleon I totally understand your reason for opening this thread and I must admit that even if I'm not a child-teen-young person, I often find myself extremely embarrassed by some remarks and reactions I see on social media. It's not like I'm a prude person or something, but I do believe that this kind of conversation should remain private for the sake of common sense and decency. Moreover, I will never understand why the need to even tag Mika in these inappropriate discussions, and I always hope he will not notice it    Honestly, I don't know how much Mika also enjoy this explicit comments, but I have my doubts...

Anyway, I wish that everyone feeling the need to post their feelings publicly, to take a moment before that and realize that there's also kids around reading it, or if they would feel comfortable telling to Mika in his face that thing. Otherwise, there's a lot of ways to keep it private, it's so simple  

Thanks for sharing your opinion! I absolutely agree with you 100%

2 minutes ago, miknikel said:

Absolutely Mellody. We don't all laugh at the same things. What one will like may seem silly or inappropriate to his neighbor. Whatever the case, humor is a precious ally to go through life. Do we not say that humor is a form of intelligence? And, thank God, Mika is not without it

We should probably clarify again. While I'm still partially doubtful about Mika's enjoyment of the situation, this wasn't about him in the first place. We can't talk with him in fact so we can't imply we know his opinion because no we don't.

This was from the fans to the fans. And I don't really know if we can classify sexualisation as humor. 

But despite that, the main point is that multiple people have said that some comments make them uncomfortable and that it would be nice if people were more careful on what they say.

I'm really kind of astonished at how we can't find a common ground of saying we can all be more careful but we're debating wether or not it's funny to find sexual references in anything

12 minutes ago, Susan Smith said:

I also would like to say that the people interacting in this thread are not necessarily the people this is directed at! Thank you very much for talking with us. I think partly the reason chandler started this thread is we think it would be rude for us to publicly name and shame those we think make inappropriate comments, so this discussion is a less direct way for us to challenge some issues and talk with people rather than attack them 

I also started the thread bc I've seen from previous discussions (the transphobia one) that people can't debate on twitter - bc the app is not really meant for that - and on here it may be more organised to have everyone's opinion in the same thread.

11 minutes ago, Susan Smith said:

I think partly the reason chandler started this thread is we think it would be rude for us to publicly name and shame those we think make inappropriate comments

Exactly. It would be terribly rude if I started listing names even tho we all could

14 minutes ago, Susan Smith said:

someone sexualising themselves does not give YOU the right to sexualise them. You often see comments from men online like “how can women post revealing sexy pictures of themselves like this, then get mad when people objectify them?😂”.

yes!! thanks for being this clear, absolutely agree

6 minutes ago, holdingyourdrink said:

Quintessence is that we actually all agree across all ages 😊 I’ve just realized that it’s very possible that all participants in this discussion are not the targeted audience you are referring to. Because like you say, it is most probably a small part of the fans who does this inappropriately. 

I’m confused here, what is the reasoning? Other than the mere fact that Mika is a handsome man?

Yes absolutely, as always the people it's directly aimed to don't debate on it, maybe just simply because they don't know it's being discussed. It's a pity but it's fine

What I meant with the reasoning is that we were kind of surprised, I guess that's the word for it, that the reasoning was basically deciding for others what they like or not and saying it's younger people's incompetence of not knowing what is rude and what isn't.

I guess there's also a difference based on the person but I won't get into that bc that may be rude. But more than the words or emojis it's also about the context, so where the comment is posted and who is posting it.

I can see it's difficult to reach everyone when discussing about this and I realise it's unrealistic to think this will change much. 

We were just kind of surprised by the reasoning behind the thirsting, really.

What I'm trying to get across is that sexualisation is a thing and it's not pleasant. I will not believe if you tell me Mika is happy about, for example, 60 year olds explicitly posting about their sexual desires with him.

That's not the "sexy" aspect of pop. Freddie Mercury wore tight ass outfits and performed marvellous shows. That's different compared to a thirsty comments section.

And this wasn't even particularly about Mika's opinion but more on the younger fans'. The difference between what Mika does on stage and a comments section is that there's clear consent in the first while many comments are uncalled for.

I'll specify these kind go comments often are on very normal pictures of fully dressed Mika.  

It's not the context that causes the reactions. That's why we mean these comments are often uncalled for

9 minutes ago, mellody said:

I guess it might make sense that a 12 year old has different views on this than a 16 year old than a 30 or 40 year old. 

Exactly. The "drooling" emoji x20 might seem funny and cheeky to a 30 year old but kind of odd to a 12 year old. 

It's -again- a minority of people that makes it especially uncomfortable for us and not the entire fandom.

We just wanted to politely ask those certain people that are aware of the sometimes indecent comments they make to think of how this fandom includes people from all ages that may not be comfortable with people's explicit thoughts put in a comments section. 

As said, there's also people my age who comment that kind of things and we lowkey discuss constantly. At least we hoped mature adults would realise that there's a bit of a limit to public decency on social medias too, considering that anonimity in this fandom often doesn't count given that it's usually personal profiles

9 hours ago, miknikel said:

I wonder if before being a question of age, it is not rather a question of state of mind

Absolutely. In fact we talked about this with other teens too, because not all of the comments we're mentioning are from adults. Our only hope is, as with anonymity it is particularly hard to discuss with other teens that may not be as open and mature as adults, that adults will be more open to discuss and realise the point we're making

10 hours ago, mellody said:

I can assure you that he loves the looks and screams he gets for this when he's on stage, and that this is something he misses these days when he can't do shows. So all I'm doing is show him from a distance, by commenting on social media, what I would usually show him at one of his gigs.

You surely have some good points as well.

The thing that kind of confused me the most is this part. 

Yes Mika has the time of his life humping bears on stage (lol)- but what we're saying, again, is that there's a line some people have been crossing quite a lot unnecessarily.

Could be I haven't clarified this: there is surely a certain kind of content that causes certain reactions. Some of us don't follow accounts that post that kind of content. And we feel that some people (not everyone!) share very explicit reactions when it's not really necessary.

We're not trying to censor comments or people's ideas. But there's, I repeat once more, a line between "you look good mika" and "I'd sleep with you". We just think some people haven't realised that.

4 minutes ago, Susan Smith said:

What I meant before about tolerating those comments from early teens, is that we KNOW they’re young and immature haha. While I have nothing against people dancing on tables 😂, saying “older people don’t necessarily know better” is in a way admitting those sort of comments are unacceptable. And now that we’re having this conversation, hopefully we can all educate each other to become a bit more aware and take each other’s views into account 

🧚🏼‍♂️✨if it was me, I would be a good wife✨🧚🏼‍♂️

17 minutes ago, holdingyourdrink said:

Well, to be fair, older people don’t necessarily know better. I will give you a couple of examples outside of social media:

 

You know that aunt or even grandma that is totally embarrassing at parties? Making inappropriate comments (no filter comments, rather) and dancing wildly and  in a very embarrassing way as to have no shame? The one you probably need to cut off the alcohol for the rest of the night? 

 

My perspective as a 20 year old me: OMG I will NEVER do that when I’m that old!!

My perspective as a 36 year old me: party on! Have the time of your life! I respect you for feeling no shame and living your best life; as long as you don’t mean harm. 

 

Or another example: when you go out and you see “all of these old women, probably 30 or something, dancing on tables and embarrassing themselves, drinking way too much”

 

My perspective as a 20 year old me: OMG they should know better, don’t they have any self respect!?

My perspective as a 36 year old me: maaaake room, I need to show my moves on that table ya’ll! I only do this maybe once a year and I need to make it count!! 

 

Older is not the wiser. At all. We’re just all winging it like you. We just have more years of falling flat on our face to make different choices. 

 

 

But back to the social media part of it: anonymity makes it helluva lot easier to blatantly blurt out anything you want. Without being reprimanded. I honestly don’t think hormones are an excuse, because frankly some will never grow out of it. As mentioned above, it may even become worse with some. This is also not an excuse. It is purely an observation I have made in my own walk of life. But being aware of eachother’s perspective is always good and makes one more mindful of the other. 

You're right. Seeing that we're both German you too will have seen hundreds of scarily drunk grandmas dancing on tables at Schützenfeste 😂 so you're totally right. In fact it's not like we aren't talking about this with the other teens, we just use twitter or insta for that so you may not see that as much

However I still think that an 11 year old fangirling over an artist is different than a married woman doing the same. Sure, you're young at heart. Sure, "everybody else is doing it". But that doesn't make it okay. And between the two the hypothetical adult woman should overall be more responsible and know what is best for other users. 

Hormones may not be an excuse but so isn't justifying one's own behaviour because everyone else is doing it. Anyone can choose to be the better person. The question is who is more likely to be mature enough to do that?