suzie

@Yuna Shame we can't sit down together and show which part we mean where.. We are probably talking about different aspects of the vocals.

It's not that important, anyway.

On the topic of challenging notes, there were may discussions on this earlier and the conclusion of some fans was that he shouldn't pick such songs as singles (earlier it was songing high notes in Rain at tv shows we were discussing ) However, a better solution would probably be to simply re-write such songs / slightly change the mellody for live performance.

in Seoul live he clearly use full-voice (genuine voice, I mean) on the 'Underwaterrr' part. why that couldnt be the difference?

He does that on the record, too So I mean, I can't hear the difference in his singing - obviously considering that the Seoul performance is live.

PS: OMG, I have just listened to the videos you posted... I know what you mean by the 'range' being too challenging at times, but the second and the third video show that his problem is not limited to the high notes only. He needs to work on this.

Origin of Love, Underwater, Love you when I'm drunk, Step with me - In those songs I found that there are specific voice range that Mika fail to touch in live. Too low or too high. I feel very nervous whenever listening those songs in live cuz I feel that Mika's struggling with those songs to touch some notes while singing. .

I think there are many other songs of him that fall into this category. Perhaps most of them. However, him not being able to 'rule' the song is not limited to the diffiult songs only, as I noticed. He had problems with Celebrate as well at that UK tv show

When the singer fail to completely rule the song, the listeners can feel that too. I even thought Mika must have had voice problem at the end of the tour, cuz too many new songs are out of Mika's voice range. To get over that he try to change his voice to falsetto, or 1 octave lower or higher, but that change never worked. .

I agree with the first sentence but I really don't feel that these new songs would be out of his range. He claims to have a wide one, anyway.

There are two things that need to be separated: singing out of tune for whatever reason and 'physically' not being able to reach a note.

When a singer who otherwise has good ears and can sing happens to sing out of tune it may be a case of him not hearing the backing / others well or not having 'warmed up' their vocal chords or simply being nervous for some reason, like not having practiced enough...etc:teehee:

If one's voice is not in good enough condition to sing well some high or low notes, they should ideally need do the song in a different key. That is impossible if they have prerecorded backing vocals or music, like they (now unfortunately ) have for TOOL, for example. So they are left with the octave higher and lower version of some parts but it may not sound that good. I agree it could still be the best solution in many cases though.

I know it's very unrealistic idea, but thought it could be good if entire TOOL is re-produced in other way. Like, fix some songs to be in Mika's best voice range, removes some unappropriate electronic voice twists that hides Mika's beautiful voice tone. Every single raw stone of TOOL songs are so so good. Once I experienced that the song that I felt the 'Worst' one became 'Absolutely Beautiful one' by some changes, 'Blame it on the weather in Seoul' I mean.

I am with you on 'Love in Bad Times' but for the recorded version (can't even remember the Seoul one). I don't have any problem with the way the album sounds but some songs, like TOOL or Celebrate could have got an entirely different meaning with different arrangements. What I don't understand is the 'concept'. When I heard MYH i thought Mika would go to a more alternative electronic music direction and try to appeal to a different audience but then they launched the album with Celebrate ... So there was no 'edge' to the comeback at all.

I repeated the Seoul live ver and the album ver, and todays live ver of Underwater several times, and tried to find what's the difference between 3.

in Seoul the drum was more theatrical and epic, and the backing singing of Ida & iMMa was more powerful.

But the core difference was that, he sang the highest part of 'Underwaterrrrr' with his genuine voice, not falsetto. By touching the highest part with falsetto, the whole song suddenly loose the power I think..But he chose to sing the highest part with falsetto in recorded/recent live ver both.

sorry, but I don't think so ... I have just listened to the Seoul live version and the recorded version and the main difference is that in the live version the audience do not clap to the ryhythm

Anway, they are in the same key and Mika sings them exactly the same way. In the recorded version he sings more voices in the chorus (obviously, since he can only sing one live) but in the Seoul version he also ends the last chorus with the high notes, just like you have those parts as well in the recording. In recent concerts he may turn to the higher part (that you refer to as falsetto) in the second chorus already and in general, more often, but that makes it SO MUCH BETTER because a good audience sings the lower parts so you perform the song with him using mulitvoices. Actually, when you are talking about real voice and falsetto, this part he sings sounds to me like proper headvoice (not falsetto like you'd hear in GK) . There are very few songs he uses it, which is a shame, I actually love it.

Ummmm... do you think Mika might have heard this song before he wrote Popular song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpB-Ug7sc7s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

Maybe?

Great find, thank you.

Waiting for Tah Dah to get to No 3..

I feel that several songs on the album miss something in the recording I think it is good that Mika works with other producers, but Greg Wells seems to get the best mix for Mika songs.

 

But I fear it is Mika himself who keeps adding things to the recordings. I wish someone could for once convince Mika that less can be more.

To me it was the arrangements on the 3 French bonus tracks that confirmed how much Greg can contribute to Mika's albums. Those ideas may be more or less Mika's but Greg is the one who 'translates' them.

I agree with Mika being the one who overcomplicates and overlayers the songs he choses to be the key ones on the album. Same thing happened to WAG. In my opinion, however, if anything, it is the lyrics that should be paid more attention to and revised by a lyricist if needed.

@Dreamy_Queen yes, it's not that any of these songs are 'bad', it's just that some of us may have a vision of what they could have sounded like if there is a different direction... In TOOL's case the first live performance (without the 'disco beat' under it ) that showed clearly how the song could have also been recorded

I chose Origin of Love, Overrated and Un Soleil Mal Luné.

I am glad you chose the last one. It would have been my 5th choice.

My first 3 are

Underwater (),

Tah Dah ( a shocking surprise, evoking George Michael and the BeeGees all in one )

Make You Happy - a true masterpiece, can't get enough of it and love the 2 faces to it (Miami and LA edit)

The best song is The Origin of Love, in my opinion, but to me that's the one that misses something or, actually, a lot in the recording. I would prefer a versuon that sounds gradious or at least more uplifting rather than sounding 'dancey' and focusing on the drugged effect (distortion). I also miss dynamics.

And I just wanted to add, that I think no one will vote for "Celebrate" because we know now that it didn't worked out very well, but that it's not necessarily the rating the song would have gotten if it hadn't been the single.

I don't think so, actually. Most of us guessed it would not work out the first time we heard it and it didn't. You can read back first reactions... To me this poll confirms that single choice is more obvious to most fans than it is to record companies.

Except of course I can't vote for Popular - Suzie I disagree that that it is "hugely based" on a song from a musical - it's only the chorus.

But most of the singing part in Mika's song is the chorus:roftl: (just like in the musical) and it is also the piano riff and the 'la la' part, btw.

Anyway, I just wanted to be fair to the original songs, including the bonus tracks.

Thanks for all the responses.

I chose Stardust and The Origin of Love

So, as promised, I am coming back with another poll where you can choose, if you want, the 2 songs you believe would have been the best singles to promote the album with. That is subjective, of course, so perhaps the best idea is to think of the songs you can imagine your local radio stations playing from this album.

We have 18 songs but only 16 options I can put for voting. So, I decided not to include L’amour dans le mauvais temps and Un soleil mal lune (both of which I really like though) as they would make an unlikely single, IMO, especially internationally.

I saw my earlier 'vote your favourite new song' tread being bumped and thought it would be a good idea to create a poll for you to choose your 3 favourite tracks from the whole album

The only problem is that we have 18 songs but only 16 options I can put for voting. So, I have put EMD/ Emily as one and I am not listing Popular as it is hugely based on a song from a musical.

(However, I will create another thread in a minute where I'll ask you to choose 2 songs you think would have been the best singles to promote the album with, to which I will add Popular.)

So, please choose no more than 3 songs on TOOL you think sound the most awesome/ beautiful / amazing .

I don't think the solution for this is for everyone to retire from pop music and go write musicals but to focus on their music and stop worrying about hit singles and getting attention by any means necessary. Rufus Wainwright has never had a hit single so he's never sold as many songs as Grace Kelly or Poker Face but he is extremely well respected - by critics, by fellow songwriters and by music fans. There's nothing wrong with that IMO.

Yes, and this is the area where Mika is missing out on. His talent is totally played down in the media and his songwriting is undervalued in the music business. In other words, he has no credibility and it is very difficult to build a long term career without that. Some of his latest releases have certainly not helped that. In a way I agree with what Marilyn posted earlier (not sure where I saw it) that Mika needs to re-invent himself. I don't think that reinvention needs to mean him hiding in the background since he is a great performer. However, he needs to decide what he wants. If he wants to appeal to kids he should play a different game in the media, whilst if he wants to open his heart with any release he needs to look and sound honest and act professional.

But Adele doesn't need a hit single. People love her entire album and that's why it has broken Michael Jackson's Thriller record for number of weeks on the top 10 in the US charts. That's the problem with the music industry today. They have shifted their entire focus from developing their artists into real artists who can produce masterpiece albums and instead are focused on making hit songs whose star burns out in a couple of months at best.

...........

People are trading in long term gain to try to get a hit single but the end result is that people only buy the hit single and nothing else. So instead of selling 10 songs they only sell one. If Adele's phenomenal success is not proof of that I don't know what is.

This argument also comes back to the point of performers who manage to establish themselves as credible artists for whatever reason - whether that be for songwriting, such as for Rufus Wainwright, or for singing, like in Adele's case -, have no reason to fear what is happening to their coming releases as they will keep having their audience. I think this is what Mika is trying to make his record company / people or himself believe when he keeps talking about his loyal fans. He surely has some, like any popstars do, but not sure if it is enough. I really think he should go back to point 0, when he won BBC Sound of 2007 and see how he sounded and presented himself back then and start anew. And by that I don't mean sounding the same, but forgetting all that happened after January 2007. Approaching his career differently may help him. He is pretty creative to figure out how to.

What about Tah Dah? It's got Mika written all over it but Pharrell's name is still attached.

I think it's got Barry Gibb written all over it

Agreeing with someone who posted before (not sure who, sorry) Tah Dah is a very special song that IMO should have been in the main disc instead of being a bonus (WTF?). .

yes, that's something I don't understand, either. I mean, it would have even fitted the sound of the album better than Celebrate. I mean, the songs are in different styles / subgenres but where does this urban rap fit in with Mika? He is not part of that subculture and it does sound awkward in his song. In Popular he uses rap as a means of humour and that type of awkwardness is the key to the humour in the song - and that is also missing from this version of Popular, btw

Collaborations are collaborations and I will never understand them. If you are a songwriter, GOSH, MAN, WRITE YOUR OWN SONGS AND DON´T LET ANYONE MESS WITH YOUR IDEAS. (rant over). If you really need (or at least that´s what your label says) to do some collaborations in order to make your album better promoted, at least you should choose better who you collaborate with. I swear I never heard of Pharrel before and never heard of him after knowing he collaborated with Mika...

I think collaborations do work for him in general. He seems to need other people's input for songwriting so why not keep that. I have been thinking that besides his ocassionally 'funny' lyrics it is him overthinking the production that spoils some of his songs.

Oh dear I think that would be hopelessly awkward and sound terribly dated. I did like Ring Ring live though so maybe I'd be pleasantly surprised.

You mean jazz or rock? Well, I guess you mean the latter. I don't mean Bon Jovi type of mainstream rock, btw. I mean 70s type of progressive rock (well, perhaps modernized a bit) where Mika could use his falsetto. In fact, I was partly hoping for that with this album after he mentioned Fleetwood Mac.

Oh,yes! This would be great,indeed,and I always thought he'll do that.I think he's born for rock,just that he doesn't know it yet .......I'm still hoping

I need to go to the bad fan corner again because I don't remember that. So it sounds like Mika and Greg arranged and produced it. Business as usual. There are just some unfortunate Minnie Mouse vocals on it instead of Priscilla's.

On the question of bullying: it can happen to anyone at any age, anywhere and even if it happened in the past it may have left scars so deep that an older person can revoke it vividly. It is not that the theme does not fit Ariana's age but she sings it in a way that she doesn't seem to understand what she is singing about - if you know what I mean. They should have simply recorded the song from the musical with her as the lyrics to that fit the this mix better. But then of course Mika wouldn't have received this huge exposure to the US teen market...

Edit 2: Greg is the connection. He seems to have worked with Ariana before on a song to a tv series (No5)

http://reviews.bestbuy.com/3545/2329185/victorious-music-from-the-hit-tv-show-reviews/reviews.htm?sort=helpfulness&suppressscroll=true&showcomments=5333532

@Christine I may not know what is authetic to him but I do know what sounds authentic to me and it is based on the subjective impressions I get from a performance. For example, I doubt a 14year old could ever perform Adele's Someone Like You on a way that touches me since she is unlikely to have the life experience to sing it that way

I can imagine Mika writing songs in several genres. His love of electronic music was apparent even back in the early days or especially back then, so I was not surprised by this album in that aspect. In fact, I consider it a mistake not to have promoted it with some electro -dance tracks like Stardust or Overrated. I can also imagine Mika writing jazzy stuff but what I'd really like him to do is rock, which is highly unlikely. To begin with, he is not really into it and he'd need a band and not session musicians. If it did happen though, he could sound totally awesome live.

@smokesignal yes, it was noted that there are differences in the lyrics. I don't want to guess how the recording happened. Perhaps Ariana will share details later on.

Edit: the answer is below. So Mika is likely to have been asked when the album had such success in the first week of its release in the US.

Was hooking up with Pharrell a sell out because Celebrate is not as good as it might have been if Mika was left to his own devices? What about Tah Dah? It's got Mika written all over it but Pharrell's name is still attached.

 

We don't really know what compromises were made and why during the writing and production phases or what Mika's honest opinions are about the end result of any of his collaborations. Just because some fans don't like it doesn't mean he doesn't.

Well, I don't know under what circumstances Celebrate turned out the way it did. He did mention Pharrell adding the line 'it is gonna be OK', and called it 'classy'. In my 'value judgement', it is not, in fact, the opposite. At the same time, in a recent interview he said that he re-mixed Pharrell's version with Nick Littlemore and came up with something different. Regardless of who spoilt the song (if it ever sounded good at all with that rap insert, anyway) , I personally classify it as non-Mika style and an awkward attempt to make it sound 'urban'. In theory it may have been his intention to have such song on the album, of course. However, whether I am wrong or right about the reason behind it, it is still how it makes me feel and it seems a large number of people felt in a similar way. It does not make it a bad song, just not fitting Mika and the presence or lack of authenticity is always based on some kind of value judgement, imo.

The Fame 620.000

Born This Way 190.000 (Yes Mums is a bigger seller than Lady Gaga)

.

Thank you. That is really interesting because if I put these in chronological order, I get

2007 LICM. 1,200,000

2008 The Fame 620,000

2009 TBWKTM. 350,000

2011 Born this Way 120,000

2012 TOOL 71,000

a rapidly declining trend, although I doubt it is only the crisis.

Promoting a tour is with the promoters, not necessarily or only with the record company. Isn't the relatively low profile tour promo due to the venues being too small this time? It was most likely easier to sell out a tour of small venues with no promotional effort rather than risking an investment to promote an arena tour.

@Camille thank you for the figures. Just out of interest, it would actually good to compare the same for Lady Gaga just to see the level of the likely decline

 

But don't you think all these collaborations whether it's Jodi Marr or Pharrell, are an attempt to improve the song for the purposes of making something people will want to listen to and not strictly a form of artistic expression? Isn't collaborative songwriting more of a craft (not totally unlike what Mika describes went on in the Brill Building) than art?

That is exactly how I view Mika' songwriting since the beginning: he is more of a songwriting craftsman rather than a self-expressing composer (the points gig totally confirmed this) but it does not mean that what he does can't be considered 'honest' / true to his own taste (vs karaoke stars who have limited input in the creative process. I also think that Mika's way of writing is partly the result of his knowledge gap in music theory and playing instruments (he needs someone like Greg to transcribe his thoughts) and partly from the fact that in most cases he recycles. At least he does it well though and with a great ear to catchy melodies. That's also what I used to think of Gaga except that she is a much better piano player.

That is why I believe he needs to understand what works for him and what does not and where he went wrong in certain cases. A real songwriting craftsman takes time to figure out how to perfect his skills whilst an 'artist' type of composer may not be interested in how well their songs go down.

I am posting twice now as I can't quote properly

Right that is my point. This is a matter of quality and not artistic integrity. I bought Un Soleil Mal Luné and EMD and I'm not going to buy this version of Popular because I don't like it. So I totally agree with you there. Some collaborations produce better work than others.

?

To me, Mika is not present in this record and I don't even consider it a proper collaboration, just a song produced by others and him singing some lines on top. That' s my point.

If I compare it to Queen (well, Brian and Roger only) agreeing to re-record We Will Rock You with 5ive ( that was some boyband in the UK in the 00's or the 90s) I conclude that WWRY was more horrendous and a real sell-out as they even did a video to it. It must have been a nice boost in the sales of their back catalogue but most like not near as much as Mika, Katy Perry, Lady Gaga or Adam Lambert meant fir them in terms of introducing Queen's music to new generations.

If the album promo was not even enough in France, I really wonder what else could have been expected. It is the lead single that promotes the album best, if it is a flop a second single is to be released right afterwards.

I am pretty much convinced that any prior research in the relevant target group would have shown what a bad choice Celebrate was ( and by that I don't suggest Mika writing songs seed on market research, btw..)...The question is if the record company knows who they are targeting.

Anyway, shame, it is a great album.

@Camille do you have the sales for the first two albums, just to compare?

But this just brings us back around to the French songs and how I think this is no more or less a case of selling out than a collaboration aimed to appeal to Americans. Why do you need a French lyricist if you are writing songs in order to express yourself? It sounds like someone else's expression to me. How can toning down the word "bitch" be a sell out but asking someone to rewrite your song in their own words be a form of artistic expression?.

When I first heard this song I didn't even notice change in the lyrics, I was so shocked by the sound. It was almost like hearing it from the Gummybears.

You have a good point about the French lyricist we never actually discussed here, but I think Mika should need a lyricist in general. What I noticed a long time ago is that any song that has Jodi Marr as a co-writer tends to have really good lyrics, whilst some lines in certain other songs are really not well-chosen. I am not listing any examples now though.

Mika was totally lost and out of inspiration in early 2011, that was really apparent that January, I think, and so my interpretation of what happened was that since he had no other 'collaborating patrners' in line, he booked a session with a French lyricist he knew well. So no surprise there, except that he could have run back to mama Jodi but she may have been booked with other artists already. Also, probably the only activity he had booked back then was this Compiegne gig, so this French focus might have been automatic, and especially after all these funny awards that he had recieved.

Concerning the songs themselves, none but the 'moon song' are French. The rest may follow the French lyrics in terms of the rhythm in the verses but EMD is europop, and so was Karen, except that it was recorded in Harry Nilsson style, and the chords to 'Love in bad times' totally sound like some 60's Sinatra song to me

Anyway, I was / am also disappointed by the French focus but the end result is still songs I can and in some cases I love to listen to.

I think its more that some fans don't want Mika to mix with any mainstream pop people. A while age, when he was being pictured with Lady Gaga, some thought there was a colab on the cards, and most didn't want that. I think it would have been great if it had happened.

The talk of Mika "selling out" is more about him linking up with "ordinary popstars", and while I agree that Mika is not an ordinary popstar, his exclusivity is not going to keep him selling albums ...

i think Mika's music is mainstream pop but not particularly current, so it is not selling as much as some 'trendy' music. LICM was a trend setter in a way but time passed him by. Funnily enough, back then he was collaborating with more 'alternative pop 'artists like Imogen Heap and Owen Pallett so if he now goes back to simple teen chart pop it will look like an attempt to sell out.

Concerning his possible collab with Lady Gaga back then I would have personally liked it as I loved her first album and I considered her a great, clever pop artist from the beginning who is fully in charge of her act. There is no way to compare her to Ariana in that aspect, in my opinion. Even though both of them may be really sweet people, it takes more than that for a record to appeal to a particular group of people.