JackViolet

It quotes me and people will assume Christine is describing me, while I'm pretty confident she's describing someone else.

No one thinks she is describing you, relax.

 

In a later post Jack expounds that people have to earn respect. Quite. That's why I'm not bothering to respond to Jack's recent post.

No, I wasn't saying that. I was saying you have to treat a community into which you enter with some respect. I don't know why it seems such a difficult concept for some people to get.

And you know what, I've been active on many online forums, and hey! As I said, I take the time to read the rules and feel out what the atmosphere and tone of a place are before posting. Funnily enough I never had to deal with any real newbie issues, except for those times when I have indeed jumped in too fast without knowing what I was talking about and acted a twat.

--Jack

But I stand for that the older members of MFC were patronising newbies in the thread some "pages" ago and that really pissed me off. If you read the posts again you'll see how newbies are ordered to wait their turn, it sounded like "you don't know the history, so shut up and look around and preferably silent".

And to be honest, what is wrong with that?

In real life, in every single other similar situation, no newbie would just burst into an established social group and start prancing around as they wish sans trying to learn the history, etc, without being considered extremely rude. You really just don't come into a group and expect the existing majority to cater to you just because you're new.

Do you join a reading club and immediately start telling people what books you think they should read and how they should go about discussing them? Do you join a cooking club and immediately criticize their choice of menu ("You never cook lobster or shrimp! I want to know how to cook lobster! No decent dinner is complete without a shrimp cocktail!") without waiting a bit or even trying to figure how they've decided upon it (it's a kosher Jewish cooking club)? Do you get hired into a new company and, without familiarizing yourself with their business practices, start telling them how you think business should be run based on your old company in a different industry and different part of the country?

No.

YES, I don't care if it's in the rules or not, but newbies should make an effort to shut up, pay attention, and figure out how and why things are done before chiming in with contributions. To do so without figuring out how the community operates is rude. No more, no less. Newbies should (and are) are given some understandable slack, sure--and if they say something that's got a good point, they'll be listened to just as well as anyone else (thus we have the experience of people like Niki27, who said she never felt like a "newbie"). But if they don't, why must the entire community accommodate itself for them?

They obviously didn't care to grant the community the basic respect of figuring out how it functions. Nor do they respect the hundreds' of active members' time if they expect them to do the work of explaining basic things that they should have taken the time to figure out, because they don't feel like spending their own time.

The community is there to be a community, not to hold newbies' hands and kiss away any boo-boos just because they were special enough to grant the community the favor of their presence.

You know the good thing about the newbie hierarchy system though? If you do pay attention and put forth a little effort to figure out how stuff works, you don't have to be a newbie for very long. In that respect at least, there is no real hierarchy--no one cares just how long you've been on the forum once you stop making the obvious faux pas. Most of the mods, for instance, joined a good bit after I did. Yet I've never had a conversation with Christine where her later joining date was an issue.

--Jack

Your reaction to my post carefully avoids answering my criticism about a senior member giving descriptions of Michael and Fortuné Penniman and then reproachin gothers with doing the same thing.

If Christine put on line description of the two guys, doesn't it make her 'as bad as the paparazzi' ? Or, again, is there a double standard on this Forum ? Pretty worrying if that is the case...

People have answered several times already: NO ONE was ever reproached with giving descriptions of Michael and Fortune Penniman. Several more people (such as Big Girl) just provided some more descriptions--no one minded or cared. The ONLY reason others were reproached is that they told people to get ready with their cameras.

I would feel an insufferable prig if I asked them to refrain from posting paparazzi's stolen pictures, even though I am not happy to see them on line.

Yeah, well, Mika's an insufferable prig I suppose. Too bad this is his fanclub and all, so sometimes we try to oblige his wishes.

--Jack

So when Christine gives a description of Michael and Fortuné Penniman she is just trying to humour people’s curiosity but when another (smaller –pecking order again…) member does the same, without providing any photos either, she is encouraging fans to harass the poor guys and their entire family ?

Well all Christine did was provide a description. She did not tell people to take photos or get their cameras ready when they saw someone who looked like this-or-that.

The mods did not reprimand you for giving a description. They reprimanded you for telling people how to get photos of Fortune.

I would love to read the message where Christine gave those description but she has been so talkative that I didn't have the courage to go through all her posts. Could JackViolet or any members who read it oblige ? Thanks a lot.

http://www.mikafanclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1652104#post1652104

http://www.mikafanclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1588956#post1588956

Just a random thought: Getty had a bunch of pictures of Paloma and Yasmine from one of the gigs (Beirut' date=' I guess), and it was sort of .. 'reinforced' when they were found that "they don't want pictures posted online, so don't post them, etc, etc." - which seems .. odd, because those are 'official' sort of photos aren't they? Yasmine and Mika at the Igors, that's okay to post, Yasmine and Paloma, not okay. If Mika was standing with them in those pictures would that have made them okay?[/quote']

 

Probably. We are the Mika fan club after all, not the Yasmine-and-Paloma fan club. We want to see all pics of Mika, and ok, some may have his family in them. But since his family want to stay out of things mostly, why post pictures of them without Mika?

 

Although personally, I don't think it's a problem to post pics at publicity events (although was this a publicity event or just pics taken at his show? If it's at his show, it may be a different matter...). However, as rak1 said, Mika's the one who asked us not to. So we're just following his lead.

 

--Jack

But in the same way members of his family who work very closely with him on his projects and appear in countless TV coverages and blogs shouldn’t be coy about appearing on a picture taken on very public occasions.

Mika's mum and Yasmine aren't very coy about having professional photos taken, but like any normal people who just happen to work with someone famous rather than be famous themselves, do not like to have various surprise shots of themselves taken by fans and posted online.

Mika's dad and Fortune have not appeared in "countless tv coverages and blogs" by any stretch of the imagination. Fortune was briefly visible in the Grace Kelly video (along with about 50 other people), and his dad may have happened to get on camera in a tv appearance, but he was never in the center of the shot... he just happened to be there when the camera was.

--Jack

I know that she appears with Mika in his gigs, concerts, etc. I don't know how much she had voluntarily splashed her pics over magazines and papers, but I do have read warnings (more like requests) from mods not to post pics of his family members besides Mika himself and his sister Yasmine here and I'm pretty sure they didn't mean that their request involved only someone's non-professional shots.

No, no, that's pretty much exactly it. The reason we can post pics of Mika's mum is that she's out in public so much, and is often in photos that are publicly posted. Photos of Yasmine when she was out accompanying Mika to the Grammies or other award shows, or even a public night on the town with other celebrities--those have been posted as well. If anyone gets a photo of Mika's mum gardening or something, or runs into her on the street and takes a photo that wasn't voluntarily posed for--those would not be allowed to be posted here either.

Mods are specifically asking people not to post photos they themselves have taken of his more camera-shy family members, and any family paparazzi photos not involving Mika.

When and if Mika's dad and brother accompany him to an awards show and there are photos taken of that, the mods will not mind those photos being posted here. If they do an interview or a magazine article, the mods won't mind it being up here. But since that has not yet been the case, the mods discourage hunting down those family members who have chosen to keep a low profile.

Christine's description of Mr. Penniman sr and Fortune--well, honestly, I don't think she should have given it either, although all she was doing was trying to humor people's curiosity without providing any photos. However, describing his family is not against the rules, so it's not like she broke any guidelines. I just think it's better to avoid such talk altogether, and I was the one who said so, but I don't make the rules.

By that time Yasmine had given interviews in TV and got a media coverage during the art exhibition last summer. But in MFC she was still treated like not a public person.

An interview and an art exhibition does not really a "public person" make. Mind you, since the interview and art exhibition were public, it's not like pictures of that were forbidden here. But overall, hers is not a very public profession. Our very own Blue Sky has been interviewed on tv, for instance. I don't think that means she now has to lose her privacy.

--Jack

P.S. Is it really that difficult? Professional photos taken an publicity events: a-ok. Personal stealth photos or photos not taken at publicity events: no-go.

If you take a photo with Fortune or whatever and he tells you it's ok to post online, that's also ok. But most of the time that Mika's family--including his mum and Yasmine--will agree to take a photo with someone nowadays, they ask it not to be posted online.

:-) Somehow, chickadee, I think not many will be able to figure out the meaning of your boxes. How fitting!

(although now maybe, with this hint...)

--Jack

Just wanted to tell Melanie that I really really liked her comment on Mika's last blog.

--Jack

You're right about Poe, he's someone "traditional" and yet very fun to read for even a casual poetry reader, I think.

If you like Tim Burton's stuff, do you like Edward Gorey?

(You can't look into Russian poets unfortunately. :-( The fun parts are all based on untranslatable word play.)

--Jack

But does anyone else think he might be getting back at us for the Dr Seuss stuff? Posting something this obscure on a blog populated by large numbers of fawning teenage girls....

I have to say, the MFC is my only online haunt where Charles Bukowski would be described as obscure. I mean, I think you're right, he is. (Honestly I haven't really read much of his work, just heard him mentioned about.) But it's funny, when you spend time with people who bandy names around in casual conversation, you forget that these names are not generally well-known. I already ran into this today with Joanna Newsom. I guess that's what I get with hanging around people who are indie elitists.

However, I am totally lost on the Dr Seuss stuff. Someone enlighten me?

And Jack I love your poems to ordinary objects and look forward to the rice cooker one too. Very accessible.

Thank you. The rice cooker one will not likely be forthcoming though.

--Jack

why would he say all poets are sad? I mean, he is a poet in his own way writing song lyrics, I just didn't like that he said that.

It's not even so much "sad" as that he was apparently saying he expects all poetry to be "inaccessible" (ie, hard-to-read) and humorless (ie, boring), and that finding a poet who writes something that's actually fun to read is a rarity. This is not true at all.

I mean, just look at Ogden Nash!

Or a bit more serious, but still quite accessible, Len Roberts...

I mean, I prefer Russian poets. So I don't know too many English ones. But poets can be absolutely amazing, and not in a snooty, over-dramatic way. They can be witty and sharp and devastating and hilarious and at the same time, very very meaningful.

--Jack

Awww, thanks, chicakdee and lilmot! Maybe I should do a whole series: Odes to Domestic Objects.

Tea-kettle, you

with your smug snout

and your big belly

think you're such hot stuff.

Your come-hither whistle demands attention.

you must expect me to come running

when you're ready.

So full

of yourself.

Well you may be right

but I'll stay away.

I don't want to get burned.

--Jack

I dunno . Your poem it's just crazy for me . Or maybe it's just because I don't know some words so, maybe, I'm not getting the real mean of the poem .

I think the whole "meaning" of the poem depends on whether one gets the joke at the end of it or not. So I guess it requires knowledge of some basic physics aphorisms?

--Jack

Can I say I think you are crazy ?

Hahah, why?

--Jack

Maybe I should share my own poetry with Mika. It's quite accessible.

The Big Bang

Yesterday

The vacuum cleaner

exploded.

Dust bunnies sent their shrieks

Into my newly suctioned air

And hung like swollen moth(ball)s

In the swirling space.

My little red dirt devil

gone to

Hell.

It must be true.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

--Jack

You can paste yours here too, if you want:naughty:

Oh, all right. It's long and lecture-y!

Jack Violet :

 

Date: August 15, 2008 @ 1:43 am

 

“Far from what I’d expect from a poet, I found his work accessible and full of humour.”

 

Come on, Mika! You’re not someone I expected to stereotype or practice reverse snobbery! Especially since you’re someone who appreciates classical music along with pop music–and you know how many people dismiss classical music as “stodgy” or “boring” or “pompous.”

 

Poetry is like any other genre–it contains a wide range or tone and expression. The poetry we consider “inaccessible” is usually just from a time period when a different type of expression was the norm. Sure there are “difficult” and obtuse poets, but same thing with musicians.

 

Have you read, for instance, the poetry of Anne Sexton? She’s a feminist poet so I don’t know how much her work would resonate with you, but her fairy-tale poems for instance are damn sharp and funny.

 

A sample:

http://plagiarist.com/poetry/?wid=597

 

Most of my favorite poets are Russian, so be glad I can’t give you endless links. ;-)

--Jack

My comment was really obnoxious.

You haven't seen mine.

--Jack

The Brits have... weird taste in women.

This is not meant as a disparaging comment on the top-ranked ones, just at my confusion as to how some of the rest of them are ranked.

--Jack

Good, I thought this thread was dead!

Christine owes me a PM.

Is everyone in a bad mood?

--Jack

Care to elaborate?

I did, in his blog. You'll see it when he approves comments.

--Jack

Far from what I’d expect from a poet, I found his work accessible and full of humour.

Oh, Mika.... sigh.

--Jack

Well I didnt think that he would know who she was because no one who I have ever talked about Joanna to has known who she was. I am sorry.

Hah, sorry, I didn't mean to pick on you! I just assumed people knew Joanna.

--Jack

All he seems to listen to is Beck, Arcade Fire, and other random people.

 

 

He needs some classics

Actually I thought your post was one of the more helpful ones. By showing the playlist, you provided context of the kind of stuff you listen to--and so then Mika could look at whatever bands there he doesn't know and either go "oh, she has good taste, maybe I should check these out" or else "gosh, she's dull, I'll pass."

--Kack

Does it make sense to recommend musicians/songs to him that he most likely already heard? Like, if we're going to do it, shouldn't we focus on more obscure/underground things?

Because I think recommending Joanna Newsom or Sigur Ros to him is a bit like recommending David Bowie.

--Jack

I don't know if this happens already, but when new members join, they should automatically be sent a PM with a "PLEASE READ" message containing everything they need to know.

Yeah, I thought Deb said that new members are now sent a PM with a link to the FAQ and guidelines (though the FAQ has the basic guidelines already).

--Jack