Guest Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Lollllllllllllllllllllllll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovempls Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 The first part I bolded because that's not really true at all... Well, it is true. The Constitution was put into practice in 1787 (after the Articles of the Confederation didn't really work out ). The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kk448 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Well, it is true. The Constitution was put into practice in 1787 (after the Articles of the Confederation didn't really work out ). The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Well damn...guess who's US history teacher should be fired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon-to-bemrs.penniman Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Oh I love you :wub2:. Have you read the book freakonimics? It's VERY interesting indeed. I quote from a review... "On example of this approach is his highly contentious view that one of the main drivers of the reduction in crime in the US from the mid-90s was the legalization of abortion (in 1990 there were 2,245 murders in New York, in 2003 this had fallen to 596). Using a wide range of data and relatively simple tools, such as weighting and regression, Levitt starts by dismissing several myths about the reduction in crime that occurred right across the US. In general it was not due to increased use of capital punishment, it was not due to the booming economy, it was not due to innovative policing (although increases in police numbers did have an effect), nor was it due to tougher gun laws. Levitt showed that the bursting of the crack cocaine market (where prices fell through the floor) did have an effect (people were less willing to kill and risk being killed when the profits disappeared). But, his main claim was that a large part of the drop in the US crime rate was a direct, but unintended, consequence of the legalizing of abortion in 1973, with the Roe vs Wade Supreme Court ruling. Since the ruling there have been about 1.6 million abortions a year, amongst a population of 225 million. Most of these abortion relate to women and girls who felt they were unable to be mothers at that time (too poor, too busy, emotionally unready, too career oriented, addicted to drugs, in a bad relationship, in no relationship, victims of rape and incest – the reasons why these women felt that they should not be mothers are almost endless). The data showed Levitt that many of these 1.6 million fetuses would have gone on to be criminals in the 90s and beyond, he does not say all of them, or even most of them, but that a significant minority of them would have been criminals." Another + for legalization, or what? My sister read that book. i liked the cover:naughty:, but never bothered to look inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Hah. I'm playing the religion card? I didn't know there was such a thing. Either way it wasn't brought up until a couple of the pro-choice people said something...basically assuming it was because of my religion that I am pro-life. I don't remember ever saying anything about anyone else's beliefs in any of my arguments, nor did I bring up any nationalities either. Of course, I can only speak for myself. I'm offended by some of the comments and I'm not any of the religions mentioned...Of course, I know that I saw some offensive things (not on purpose), however, I'd like to think I do it in a way without making someone feel badly about themselves or what they believe in. The first part I bolded because that's not really true at all... I'm not here to defend any of the comments made by others, I can only speak for myself and I don't feel you should be offended by what I said unless you consider yourself to be an exremist. I still firmly stand by what I said about organized religion, I do not like it. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with believing, I just don't feel you need to build and visit million dollar churches to show how serious you are about your religion. This is my personal view about organized religion. The context in which I said the things you quoted was something other than the abortion discussion by the way. They were said in reference to immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon-to-bemrs.penniman Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 can we discuss euthanasia? or is that too controversial? how about....the environment and global warming. that's a good, safe topic that (most) people agree on. discuss:cheerful_h4h: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovempls Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 that's a good, safe topic that (most) people agree on. Where's the fun in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon-to-bemrs.penniman Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Where's the fun in that? hmm.. good point:naughty: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kk448 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I'm not here to defend any of the comments made by others, I can only speak for myself and I don't feel you should be offended by what I said unless you consider yourself to be an exremist.I still firmly stand by what I said about organized religion, I do not like it. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with believing, I just don't feel you need to build and visit million dollar churches to show how serious you are about your religion. This is my personal view about organized religion. The context in which I said the things you quoted was something other than the abortion discussion by the way. They were said in reference to immigrants. Oh, I definitely agree with you on that one. My dad and I left the church we used to go to because we feel stuff like that was going on. Trust me, my faith in God is not reflected by those millionaire reverends, pastors, priests, on TV. What does the bible say? Something like, "It's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to go to heaven." I may have butchered that, but it's not like I have these things memorized. I just read it every now and then. There's too much corruption going on with extremists to me. I also don't like the people who go to church on Sundays and act holy and the rest of the week sin like crazy. Again, not so much by what you said (just the religion card). I should have made the extremist part more noticeable. I just got a little upset when it was brought up right away that I didn't believe in sex before marriage (which isn't true) and that the topic shouldn't be discussed with Americans. Mostly, the bolded stuff was most offensive (in my opinion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohwowitsnicka Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 can we discuss euthanasia? or is that too controversial? how about....the environment and global warming. that's a good, safe topic that (most) people agree on. discuss:cheerful_h4h: Hmmm global warming.... or how about the world ending in 2012? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kk448 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Hmmm global warming.... or how about the world ending in 2012? Jeez, thanks for bringing that up Shanicka... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovempls Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Hmmm global warming.... All I know is that global warming doesn't sound like such a bad thing where I live It hasn't gone above 20 F in weeks and there's like 2 feet of snow on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohwowitsnicka Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Jeez, thanks for bringing that up Shanicka... LOL. Some people think that alien colonization will begin in 2012. All I know is that global warming doesn't sound like such a bad thing where I live It hasn't gone above 20 F in weeks and there's like 2 feet of snow on the ground. hahahh same here! we got like... 70 cm of snow in two weeks at the beginning of december. it was crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Oh, I definitely agree with you on that one. My dad and I left the church we used to go to because we feel stuff like that was going on. Trust me, my faith in God is not reflected by those millionaire reverends, pastors, priests, on TV. What does the bible say? Something like, "It's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to go to heaven." I may have butchered that, but it's not like I have these things memorized. I just read it every now and then. There's too much corruption going on with extremists to me. I also don't like the people who go to church on Sundays and act holy and the rest of the week sin like crazy. Again, not so much by what you said (just the religion card). I should have made the extremist part more noticeable. I just got a little upset when it was brought up right away that I didn't believe in sex before marriage (which isn't true) and that the topic shouldn't be discussed with Americans. Mostly, the bolded stuff was most offensive (in my opinion). Exactly. Faith and believing is something very personal and no one should tell you what you need to believe in and how you should express that. Like I said, I have nothing against religious people (heck, I even had a muslim boyfriend), I have something against organised religion + extremists. And I hope we can finally drop the subject now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guapo! Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 And I hope we can finally drop the subject now. drop it like it's hot! lol, yeah, big contribution to the thread.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackViolet Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Wow, I am so staying away from this thread so as not to lose my respect for over half the people on this forum. And I don't even mean the ones who disagree with me politically. --Jack P.S. Sarie, since I think I was one of the "animal activists," my only issue with you deciding to kill a calf before he is born would have nothing to do with the life of the calf, but with the fact that you would be invading the mother cow's body without permission or consent. If the COW somehow decided to kill her unborn calf, sure, that would be fine by me. Certainly an unborn animal is no more alive in my eyes than an unborn human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 P.S. Sarie, since I think I was one of the "animal activists," my only issue with you deciding to kill a calf before he is born would have nothing to do with the life of the calf, but with the fact that you would be invading the mother cow's body without permission or consent. If the COW somehow decided to kill her unborn calf, sure, that would be fine by me. Certainly an unborn animal is no more alive in my eyes than an unborn human. But technically, the calf wouldn't be a living, REAL thing yet. Therefore it shouldn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackViolet Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 But technically, the calf wouldn't be a living, REAL thing yet. Therefore it shouldn't matter. Yeah, but you'd be performing an invasive procedure on the mother cow without her consent. I would mind just as much if you decided to perform any other unnecessary and possibly dangerous surgery on the cow. Especially since, even if it is not a living thing YET, it could become one, and the loss of it could be traumatic unless instigated by the mother cow. I mean, I am pro-choice, but I would never support people giving women abortions by force, even if the fetus "is not a living REAl thing" yet, you know? That's the difference. --jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 What does the bible say? Something like, "It's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to go to heaven." I may have butchered that, but it's not like I have these things memorized. Wanna know something neat? There's a gate in Jerusalem called the "Eye of the Needle", and lots of people think Jesus was referring to that. Because it's so low, that for a man to pass through it, both he and his camel are kneeling, and they have to leave their goods and baggage on one side. So it is possible, but he just needs to drop all of his posessions at the gate. I thought that was interesting. My dad's Jewish, and he told me that a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollipop_monkey Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Wow, I am so staying away from this thread so as not to lose my respect for over half the people on this forum. It interests me to know what was said that would cause you to lose respect for those who posted said comments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 It interests me to know what was said that would cause you to lose respect for those who posted said comments... Probably mad at me for something or other. I have this thing where I get on peoples' bad sides. Have you noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovempls Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 It interests me to know what was said that would cause you to lose respect for those who posted said comments... I'm interested too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonjourMika1990 Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 I'm interested too me three :biggrin2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollipop_monkey Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Probably mad at me for something or other. I have this thing where I get on peoples' bad sides. Have you noticed? Whaa? Naw, not you. Everyone knows that Sarie is a sweet, loveable peackeeper who never makes abrasive comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcdeb Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Wow. Just read through all 35 pages of this thread that was ostensibly about politics but which became an abortion thread... would have finished sooner, but MIKA was on the MTV Europe Awards which was FINALLY shown on US tv! Anyhoo... So much to comment on. Not sure how much I should say, but I do feel compelled to say something... hope that doesn't make me a bad mod... But first let me say this -- that despite the potential for controversy, you've all handled yourselves quite well, even if the climate has been tense... it hasn't gotten TOO nasty... I'm glad for that and am happy to see it! Thanks! Now, my thoughts on just a few things that were said... sarie, i just love hearing your point of view.it's honest, and unbaised. Sarie is anything but UNbiased. She has a definite point of view. That's called a bias. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but don't praise her for being unbiased, because she's not. And don't get your knickers in a twist -- I'm biased, too. I think if you have an opinion you're biased -- that's how it works. Wow! You all have such decided opinions for ones so young. I have found that my opinions and priorities do change, according to what I have experienced in life and what's going on around me. I have also found that no one political party coincides with everything I believe, so you have to compromise. It should come as no surprise to anyone that since bab and I are the same age (yes, really!) we see things similarly. Thanks, bab. And for the record, I'm as American as they come, and she is not. I have no idea what religious affiliation she has, if any, but I am born and raised Roman Catholic. And I'm a Democrat, FWIW. As far as abortion goes, I am most definately pro-choice, I think that unless you find yourself in the situation you can't judge. If abortion is illegal, people will find ways of doing it anyway and always have done, better to have it regulated. Worse things go on in life than legal abortion. War, for instance. Women leaders! I am surprised at the comments on this from 21st century women! A little shocked to be truthful. I can only echo what bab said. Yep, I agree. Well, I think that those young girls should be responsible not to get pregnant. It may sound harsh, but in my opinion if you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to raise a child. Do you really believe that? Really? How old are you? That sounds like such a punishment. You broke the rules and therefore you (and your bastard child) must pay the price. Bleah. In the world I live in there are 12-year-olds who have sex. I'm not saying that's right -- I don't think it is. But it happens. And you can't convince me that there is a 12-year-old alive who is ready to raise a child. No way. I was 22 when I got married, and there is NO WAY I was ready for a child. I didn't have my son until I was 32. If I had had a child sooner, I would have dealt with it, but READY for it? ESPECIALLY if I saw it as punishment for having sex? Sheesh. Having had a child, and felt it grow inside me, I don't think I could have an abortion PERSONALLY... but I do think that it's something that every woman should have the right to choose for herself. If she can live with the choice -- because of her own beliefs -- then she should have the option to make that choice legally, without fear of legal or moral recriminations. Someone mentioned gay marriages. Why the hell not? If two people want to publicly declare their love and commitment to each other and gain the same legal rights as heterosexual couples, great! The more people that care enough to do that, gay or straight, so much the better! Who else are they harming anyway? Couldn't agree with this more. So the pope might have an issue with me. But honestly. Where is the problem? My best friend and her partner have to keep their bank accounts separate and live in fear that something might happen to one or the other of them, and the other won't be able to do anything about it. In fact, I would have just as much right to take care of legal matters for my friend because she's given me all of her documents, etc., as her partner of 9 years would have. Does that seem fair? They are in a loving, committed relationship that isn't in any danger of falling apart, and yet they can't get the same benefits from being together as my husband and I can. Just an observation based purely on what I have read here, American politics seems to be based much more on religion than politics in Europe? I've never found that to be true, so I am really surprised at some of the comments here. Do all Americans really think this? It just shocks me! I personally don't think there's anything wrong with having sex when you're, like, 16 or 17, but that definatly isn't old enough to raise a child! Are you all against sex before marriage? I'm not outside my son's high school with a banner promoting it, but I don't think it's the worst thing that could ever happen to anyone. Well the terrorists were hiding out in Iraq. What?! Do you know where some of the terrorists that were on the 9/11 planes lived? Behind the grocery store where I shop, about two miles from my house. That's not Iraq. No, there are lots of reasons, but I'm sure we didn't attack Iraq because the terrorists were hiding out there. LOL! No one said that people who went to catholic schools were unintelligent!In my experience, though, people who have strong faith, don't question as much. That's it. Because it's FAITH. You don't have to question. My husband, who is much more devout than I am, go around and around about this often. Just because you read it on a website, doesn't make it so. Just because you read it in a newspaper doesn't make it so. Just because your teacher, your priest, even your mother says something doesn't make it so. You need to look around you, see what's going on, hear what others have to say... In any case... having said all this... I think this has been interesting and all, but if you want it to be a truly "political" discussion you need to get back to the point. Talk about economics, talk about issues like social security and health insurance and medicare, etc. Abortion is definitely an election year issue, but there are so many other things relating to politics... Good luck! dcdeb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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