Elle me dit stole :O:O

[Kaito]

I guess that if iRome'll get credited when the CD is released if they need to be... We'll see~

[Ellenowl]

There is only a finite number of chord progressions and reasonable lyrics in the world. Naturally, songs may sound similar, which doesn't necessarily mean that songs are plagerised.

 

I must admit that I haven't heard the song above because my headphones are missing, and also that IMO EMD is not the greatest mika song ever. Doriand also wrote it with him. I'm not exactly sure what these two facts illustrate, but it reassures me that mika is not a plagerist.

 

My brothers always say mika is a plagerist (for some reason, they really don't like him), without evidence, so I don't want them to be given any!

[rachie b]

uh oh

Ha ha ha

 

 

 

 

 

" It's Basically Pointlessly Delicious " - Mika

 

 

Youngling # 142

Queeniac # 92

 

15 - 8 -2012 St. Jean sur Richelieu

[kimikimochi]

Really, this doesn't surprise me. I've thought quite a few of Mika's songs sounded like ones by other artists. Like I can't listen to "Touches You" without thinking of "Faith" by George Michael. I don't think he's stealing anything. Unless he pulls a complete Vanilla Ice and just throws someone's instrumental work into one of his own songs, then I don't view this as a problem.

[suzie]

There is only a finite number of chord progressions and reasonable lyrics in the world. Naturally, songs may sound similar, which doesn't necessarily mean that songs are plagerised.

!

 

There is a difference between chords and melody :rolls_eyes: The number of melody combinations is infinite. These two songs have the same melody, although a really short one that gets repeated, so in theory it could be accidental.

[Ellenowl]

There is a difference between chords and melody :rolls_eyes: The number of melody combinations is infinite. These two songs have the same melody, although a really short one that gets repeated, so in theory it could be accidental.

 

The number is never completely infinite, as there is a finite number of musical notes (the word octave gives this away), although admittedly rather large. I'm talking about coherent melodies here. Yes, there are many ways of playing a random jumble of notes, but much fewer ways that actually 'make sense' to the human brain. You get the point anyway, and I think we actually agree on this matter ( for once!).

 

And if chord progressions were the same as melodies, many of mika's songs would have exactly the same tune. Thankfully, this is not the case.

 

Anyway, back to the subject of potential plagerism...

Edited August 20, 2012 by Ellenowl

[MikaMadLuke]

I am Switzerland. No comment.

 

[suzie]

The number is never completely infinite, as there is a finite number of musical notes (the word octave gives this away), although admittedly rather large. I'm talking about coherent melodies here. Yes, there are many ways of playing a random jumble of notes, but much fewer ways that actually 'make sense' to the human brain. You get the point anyway, and I think we actually agree on this matter ( for once!).

...

 

no, we don't agree yet:roftl:

The number of ways you can combine notes into a melody is infinite and it does not have much to do with the octave. To begin with, there is no limit to the length of a melody. Then the scope of melody is not limited to only one octave, not even in singing. (An octave only contains 8 notes in a diatonic scale btw).

There is no rule how a melody should progress - unlike for chords-, so if we only take possibilities fkr a really simple melody within only 1 octave and in a diatonic scale so that the ear could find it easy to process and take the length of one bar only, let's say 7 notes only, (eg. Can't you write a happy song) the number of variations in theory is 8x8x8x8x8x8x8 - over 2 million, as you can combine the notes in any way, including singing them all with the same note. And then I haven't even calculated the different types of rhythm you can use...

So, in case of the melody for a song across a number of bars can easily be proven as an intentional or non-intentional take from another song, especially if that melody is complex. I'm case of EMD though, it is such a simple children's rhyme type of song with a really limited number of notes that I don't think it is even worth analysing in terms of resemblance.

PS I went back to the suject as you asked eventually

Edited August 20, 2012 by suzie

[Tannu]

What the Heck.

 

This has a few similar notes but is waaaaaaay different.

I wouldnt have noticed the similarity if you hadnt mentioned it.

 

MTV song is really bad

[Ellenowl]

no, we don't agree yet:roftl:

The number of ways you can combine notes into a melody is infinite and it does not have much to do with the octave. To begin with, there is no limit to the length of a melody. Then the scope of melody is not limited to only one octave, not even in singing. (An octave only contains 8 notes in a diatonic scale btw).

There is no rule how a melody should progress - unlike for chords-, so if we only take possibilities fkr a really simple melody within only 1 octave and in a diatonic scale so that the ear could find it easy to process and take the length of one bar only, let's say 7 notes only, (eg. Can't you write a happy song) the number of variations in theory is 8x8x8x8x8x8x8 - over 2 million, as you can combine the notes in any way, including singing them all with the same note. And then I haven't even calculated the different types of rhythm you can use...

So, in case of the melody for a song across a number of bars can easily be proven as an intentional or non-intentional take from another song, especially if that melody is complex. I'm case of EMD though, it is such a simple children's rhyme type of song with a really limited number of notes that I don't think it is even worth analysing in terms of resemblance.

PS I went back to the suject as you asked eventually

 

Your song with millions of notes and spanning millions of octaves might sound a little odd and confusing! Theoretical variations and real-life variations are different anyway. Western music all sounds very similar when you compare it to Eastern music ( if that's the phrase) eg Chinese music. Therefore, one assumes that even in supposedly original compositions, something has subconsciously been taken from previous ones. Therefore, it is probable that most compositions around are likely to be plagerised to some extent.

 

I must admit that your knowledge of musical theory is definitely greater than mine ( although I managed to pass grade 5 music theory without really being able to read music!), but it is common sense that there is a finite number of reasonable sounding melodies. And plagerism virtually never involves copying the entire melody, making it more easy and probable than your 'over two million theory suggests.

 

I definitely do agree with you on EMD though!

[Christine]

The word is plagiarism. Sorry I don't like to be a spelling Nazi because I type really fast and make a ton of typos myself but we have many non native English speakers so I just want to clarify since the word is being used over and over.

 

Anyway I agree with Tannu the MTV song is really bad. I feel the same way about I Just Died in Your Arms Tonight and have never heard the resemblance to Relax.

[Marilyn Mastin]

As a songwriter, Mika has to expect this kind of thing. Very often it's some unknown person, who notices something similar in the song of a well known songwriter, and decides to make a fuss, possibly for money, definately to get their own song noticed.

It's true to say, that sometimes, Mika's songs do remind me of others. But not the whole song. Someone mentioned Uw and the first line has always reminded me of something else. But I can't place the song.

But in Katy Perry's Hot and Cold, from the first time I heard it the whole chorus sounded like some song I heard in the 60s, but again I can't place the song.

Gaga's Born This Way is almost identical to a song by Madonna which I think is called Express Yourself.

So it's not so unusual to have a similar song. The great Andrew Lloyd Webber said once (this is not the exact quote) there are only so many notes on the piano, only so many cords, and ways they can be used.

There is something on YT actually about a cord progression that's been used in many pop songs. The two guys sing all the songs to the one cord progression. You'd be surprised how many songs it's been used in, and one is Happy Ending.

There is also a vid about a well known piece of classical music called (now I'm not sure I've got the title quite right, but it's something like) Pacabel's Cannon, and once again Happy Ending is one song they say was based on that piece of music.

Somone might know those two vids.

But this is not worth worrying about. Songwriters expect this kind of thing and I don't think for a minute Mika did it on purpose if a song he wrote is like someone else's for a line or two.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Marilyn Mastin

[IngievV]

Mika apparently even stole his own name back in 2007: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/293471/Mika-is-being-suedby-Mika.html

[MikaMan]

As a songwriter, Mika has to expect this kind of thing. Very often it's some unknown person, who notices something similar in the song of a well known songwriter, and decides to make a fuss, possibly for money, definately to get their own song noticed.

It's true to say, that sometimes, Mika's songs do remind me of others. But not the whole song. Someone mentioned Uw and the first line has always reminded me of something else. But I can't place the song.

But in Katy Perry's Hot and Cold, from the first time I heard it the whole chorus sounded like some song I heard in the 60s, but again I can't place the song.

Gaga's Born This Way is almost identical to a song by Madonna which I think is called Express Yourself.

So it's not so unusual to have a similar song. The great Andrew Lloyd Webber said once (this is not the exact quote) there are only so many notes on the piano, only so many cords, and ways they can be used.

There is something on YT actually about a cord progression that's been used in many pop songs. The two guys sing all the songs to the one cord progression. You'd be surprised how many songs it's been used in, and one is Happy Ending.

There is also a vid about a well known piece of classical music called (now I'm not sure I've got the title quite right, but it's something like) Pacabel's Cannon, and once again Happy Ending is one song they say was based on that piece of music.

Somone might know those two vids.

But this is not worth worrying about. Songwriters expect this kind of thing and I don't think for a minute Mika did it on purpose if a song he wrote is like someone else's for a line or two.

 

 

Yea i understand i just got really worried as i love mika and elle me dit but i see quite a few differences as well to know that mika wasnt intentionally copying

[astor]

There is something on YT actually about a cord progression that's been used in many pop songs. The two guys sing all the songs to the one cord progression. You'd be surprised how many songs it's been used in, and one is Happy Ending.

There is also a vid about a well known piece of classical music called (now I'm not sure I've got the title quite right, but it's something like) Pacabel's Cannon, and once again Happy Ending is one song they say was based on that piece of music.

Somone might know those two vids.

 

This one, if anyone wants to see it

[suzie]

Sorry to come back again on this but I must...

 

it is common sense that there is a finite number of reasonable sounding melodies. And plagerism virtually never involves copying the entire melody, making it more easy and probable than your 'over two million theory suggests.

I think it is common sense that there is an infinite number of reasonable sounding melodies (the 2 million was just a random example on a 7note bar part and you keep exponentiating for more notes... then add differntiations in rhythm.. etc). It is music and maths combined. The common sense about the finite number is about chord progressions and I often see those two mixed when arguing for and against songs having been plagiarized.

I simply find it important to state as no two cases are similar: there are clear cases of plagiarism on the one hand and claims that one knowing anything about music simply laughs at on the other. It can be decided by experts based on certain rules - there is no doubt about that. That's why several musicians go to court about it.

With EMD they couldn't really (this melody bit is too short and simple for that) but it is likely that at least one of the people involved in the writing process may have heard the MTV song so perhaps subconsciously they integrated it into their own work..etc.

 

There is something on YT actually about a cord progression that's been used in many pop songs.

 

that is exactly what should not be mixed with people stealing melodies from songs. You can play this chord progression and anyone with some musicality can sing a completely different song on top, with a different melody, not resembling the rest of the songs in the video at all. It is the way you build your chords (and the number of existing chords) that are finite and limited and not the melody. So anyone claiming that Richard Marx stole from Pachabel or Mika stole from Richard Marx is just totally clueless. Also, if plagiarism was based on chords, complete genres, like boogie woogie would consist of a few songs only with the rest of them just labelled as 'stolen'

Edited August 21, 2012 by suzie

[kath]

 

Anyway I agree with Tannu the MTV song is really bad. I feel the same way about I Just Died in Your Arms Tonight and have never heard the resemblance to Relax.

 

I could NEVER hear the resemblance...until I heard Mika actually insert it into Relax

 

I agree................The MTV thing is totally pants.

[camille*]

 

Anyway I agree with Tannu the MTV song is really bad. I feel the same way about I Just Died in Your Arms Tonight and have never heard the resemblance to Relax.

 

I could NEVER hear the resemblance...until I heard Mika actually insert it into Relax

 

Really? When I hear I Just Died In Your Arms Tonight for real I sing 'Relax, take it eaaaaasy' over it But nothing more than this it's true.

 

I can't listen to more than 10 seconds of that MTV song

[kath]

Really? When I hear I Just Died In Your Arms Tonight for real I sing 'Relax, take it eaaaaasy' over it But nothing more than this it's true.

 

I can't listen to more than 10 seconds of that MTV song

 

Nope even having heard it live I still don't really get it

[suzie]

Really? When I hear I Just Died In Your Arms Tonight for real I sing 'Relax, take it eaaaaasy' over it

 

yes, it's the same chord progression.

[Christine]

yes, it's the same chord progression.

 

I don't hear chord progressions. I hear a beautiful vocalist versus one that sounds like he's dying in someone's arms rather than singing.

[kath]

I don't hear chord progressions. I hear a beautiful vocalist versus one that sounds like he's dying in someone's arms rather than singing.

 

[suzie]

I don't hear chord progressions. I hear a beautiful vocalist versus one that sounds like he's dying in someone's arms rather than singing.

 

Most people who hear it do it instinctively.(if that is the correct word) My only advantage is that I can more or less explain what I can hear and even understand why.

No lyrics or bad singing can distract me from hearing the core melody and make me conclude if a song has a potential or if it is similar to any other one in terms of the music. (Remember last summer? )

[rachie b]

Mika apparently even stole his own name back in 2007

 

[Ellenowl]

Sorry to come back again on this but I must...

 

 

I think it is common sense that there is an infinite number of reasonable sounding melodies (the 2 million was just a random example on a 7note bar part and you keep exponentiating for more notes... then add differntiations in rhythm.. etc). It is music and maths combined. The common sense about the finite number is about chord progressions and I often see those two mixed when arguing for and against songs having been plagiarized.

I simply find it important to state as no two cases are similar: there are clear cases of plagiarism on the one hand and claims that one knowing anything about music simply laughs at on the other. It can be decided by experts based on certain rules - there is no doubt about that. That's why several musicians go to court about it.

With EMD they couldn't really (this melody bit is too short and simple for that) but it is likely that at least one of the people involved in the writing process may have heard the MTV song so perhaps subconsciously they integrated it into their own work..etc.

 

 

 

that is exactly what should not be mixed with people stealing melodies from songs. You can play this chord progression and anyone with some musicality can sing a completely different song on top, with a different melody, not resembling the rest of the songs in the video at all. It is the way you build your chords (and the number of existing chords) that are finite and limited and not the melody. So anyone claiming that Richard Marx stole from Pachabel or Mika stole from Richard Marx is just totally clueless. Also, if plagiarism was based on chords, complete genres, like boogie woogie would consist of a few songs only with the rest of them just labelled as 'stolen'

 

How can there be a finite number of chord progressions and and an infinite number of melodies?

 

And having listened to the MTV song (it's horrible!), I do not think any plagerism has taken place. The melody to each song contains, for the most part, a couple of different notes. They are very both simplistic , which could be why they sound similar. Besides, I imagine mika has better taste than to like (or even have listened to) that song!