Learning Italian @MFC? Now you can!

[Log lady]

Voglio andare al concerto di maggio a Napoli e di febbraio a Montreal ma non è possibile

Voglio essere una farfalla cosi posso volare a Montreal

 

let's be butterflies together

 

Anne, you amaze me, do you speak Italian too?

[ceebs]

The pronoun agrees with the noun that follows, in general (e.g. "Amo le farfalle della giacca di Mika", "Mika ama le farfalle sulle giacche"). Before a proper name, however, any preposition is used as it is (e.g. "Amo la giacca di Mika", "Voglio andare al concerto di febbraio a Montreal"). Also before some swear words: "Ma questa è una scelta di me**a!"

 

Sigh. I thought I had cracked the code.

I thought I needed to match the delle to the farfalle.

That's it! Every preposition is del from now on.

Thanks for the help, though. Everything else has come pretty easily to me. I just have a mental block about this.

[ceebs]

let's be butterflies together

 

Anne, you amaze me, do you speak Italian too?

 

I'll be a butterfly too. They don't care what preposition they are attached to.

[zia Giovi]

Voglio andare al concerto di maggio a Napoli e di febbraio a Montreal ma non è possibile

Voglio essere una farfalla cosi posso volare a Montreal

 

I wanna be a butterfly too!

A butterfly storm will fly to Montreal next February

Congratulazioni per il tuo italiano!

 

I'll be a butterfly too. They don't care what preposition they are attached to.

 

Sorry to break the bad news, butterflies care what preposition they are attached to depending on the sentence structure, just as any other term

 

e.g.: Mi piace fare foto alle farfalle - Ho paura delle farfalle - Non mettere il sale nelle farfalle ("farfalle" is a type of pasta)

 

Never mind, it all will come easier with time. And keep asking, if you think we can help you!

[Log lady]

Sigh. I thought I had cracked the code.

I thought I needed to match the delle to the farfalle.

That's it! Every preposition is del from now on.

Thanks for the help, though. Everything else has come pretty easily to me. I just have a mental block about this.

 

Come on, don't give up

[ceebs]

Oh, I'm not giving up. I was tempted when I realized that there were four different ways to end certain colors. If that didn't stop me, this won't.

My new unit is about people, and it's going much easier. I'm good at remembering names of things.

[~TheLoveYouBreathe]

Voglio andare al concerto di maggio a Napoli e di febbraio a Montreal ma non è possibile

Voglio essere una farfalla cosi posso volare a Montreal

Me too

Che bel thread, non credevo ci fossero così tante persone che vogliono imparare l'italiano!

Io sono una maestra, perciò vi aiuto volentieri

I'm a teacher, so I would like to help with pleasure

[zia Giovi]

Me too

Che bel thread, non credevo ci fossero così tante persone che vogliono imparare l'italiano!

Io sono una maestra, perciò vi aiuto volentieri

I'm a teacher, so I would like to help with pleasure

 

A professional teacher! It's a relief for me, I'm not so confident in my teaching skills when it comes to explain Italian grammar in English.

It always sounds me like I'm saying something weird when I translate Italian grammar terms into English

[robertina]

I love my newborn thread

[zia Giovi]

I love my newborn thread

 

What a proud mom!

[Log lady]

I love my newborn thread

 

You have good reasons to be proud, it's growing up so fast!

[ceebs]

My new section is about clitics-like mi, me, ti, te etc. I'm completely lost. Any good advice?

[zia Giovi]

My new section is about clitics-like mi, me, ti, te etc. I'm completely lost. Any good advice?

 

The choice of the right pronoun depends on its position within the sentence and on its logic function.

Sometimes you can use the preposition "A" + the pronoun "ME" or "TE" instead of using "MI" o "TI"

A me piace la pizza = MI piace la pizza

A te piace la pizza = TI piace la pizza

Dillo a me = dimmelo (in this case "MI" becomes "ME" in order to have a better sound within the verbal form)

Of course the same rule is valid for the other pronouns "noi" "voi" and so on.

You can also add two pronouns to one verb only as in the DIMMELO example above:

di' (impreative verb) + me (personal pronoun) + lo (pronoun = questa cosa)

We NEVER EVER use at the same time "a me" + "mi" as they do in Spanish

A me mi piace la pizza is absolutely forbidden!!!

I don't know if this helps you, now you've probably even more confusing ideas

If you have a practical example I'll try to help you

[ceebs]

The choice of the right pronoun depends on its position within the sentence and on its logic function.

Sometimes you can use the preposition "A" + the pronoun "ME" or "TE" instead of using "MI" o "TI"

A me piace la pizza = MI piace la pizza

A te piace la pizza = TI piace la pizza

Dillo a me = dimmelo (in this case "MI" becomes "ME" in order to have a better sound within the verbal form)

Of course the same rule is valid for the other pronouns "noi" "voi" and so on.

You can also add two pronouns to one verb only as in the DIMMELO example above:

di' (impreative verb) + me (personal pronoun) + lo (pronoun = questa cosa)

We NEVER EVER use at the same time "a me" + "mi" as they do in Spanish

A me mi piace la pizza is absolutely forbidden!!!

I don't know if this helps you, now you've probably even more confusing ideas

If you have a practical example I'll try to help you

 

I guess my first question is why I need to use these tiny confounding words. When would one use them. And which do I use? How would I choose between me or mi? My app is good at showing me what to do, but doesn't do a very good job of telling. Sometimes I like the rules spelled out for me.

Aaaghhhh! Just when I think I'm getting things under control.

[zia Giovi]

I guess my first question is why I need to use these tiny confounding words. When would one use them. And which do I use? How would I choose between me or mi? My app is good at showing me what to do, but doesn't do a very good job of telling. Sometimes I like the rules spelled out for me.

Aaaghhhh! Just when I think I'm getting things under control.

 

my first suggestion is: don't panic!

Sometimes you use these pronouns because some verbs requires them: Italian has loads of verbs called "riflessivi" and when you use one of these verbs you must build the sentence using pronouns, otherwise the whole sentence has no meaning or has a completely different meaning.

Otherwise, pronouns simply replace other complements.

Just think about this: when you speak, don't you speak to someone?

In Italian you build the same sentence you'd use in English:

I speak to Bob = Io parlo a Bob

If you have already mentioned Bob in the previous sentence, don't you say "I speak to him"? In Italian you do the same, you say "gli parlo". So "gli" is a pronoun you use instead of saying "a Bob".

The same rule works with other verbs, depending on their meaning: each time you need to add a complement in order to give a sense to your sentence, you can replace the complement with a pronoun.

With some verbs you can add the pronoun to the verb: this works for the "imperative" and the "infinitive" tense, you can not use a clitic pronoun on a future tense.

So when you ask someone to speak to Bob, this in Italian becomes "Parla a Bob", or otherwise "parlaGLI". Unless you say "I asked him to speak to Bob", which becomes "Gli ho chiesto di parlare a Bob" or "Gli ho chiesto di parlarGLI".

Anyway, it will all become clearer with practice: you cannot learn by heart how to build the right sentence for all the verbs listed in the dictionary!

[Marta.]

In general, we can say that personal pronouns are referred to

people of the speech or of the phrase.

 

io, me, mi, noi, ci are referred to the speaker or to writer;

 

tu, te, ti, voi, vi are referred to the listener or to reader;

 

egli,lui,esso,lo,gli,si,ella,lei,essa,la,le,essi,esse,loro,li

 

are referred to the person or thing you are talking or writing about

 

io andavo

tu hai fatto bene

lei ha studiato

voi siete tornati

tu mi(=a me) piaci

loro ballano bene

[RayaBadran]

MFC I will need your help this time: I do not understand when to place the direct object pronoun when there is an infinitive in the phrase. For example: Hai voglia di mangiarle? or Non mi piace comprarli. When is the good time to place these pronomi diretti at these places? I have my final exam so I will bother you this week

 

Edit: in my book, they say: In two-verb constructions with an infinitive, drop the final -e and attach the pronoun to the end of the infinitive... What do they mean by "In two-verb constructions?" Do they mean passato prossimo only or...?

Edited May 3, 2014 by RayaBadran

[RayaBadran]

In general, we can say that personal pronouns are referred to

people of the speech or of the phrase.

 

io, me, mi, noi, ci are referred to the speaker or to writer;

 

tu, te, ti, voi, vi are referred to the listener or to reader;

 

egli,lui,esso,lo,gli,si,ella,lei,essa,la,le,essi,esse,loro,li

 

are referred to the person or thing you are talking or writing about

 

io andavo

tu hai fatto bene

lei ha studiato

voi siete tornati

tu mi(=a me) piaci

loro ballano bene

 

This is helpful for another question I was about to ask grazie!!

[ceebs]

Thank you for the clitic advice. I have had time to wrap my brain around it for a few days, and it's making more sense. My lesson only called them clitics, not pronouns. So you all helped me a lot simply by calling them pronouns. I began seeing them in a way that made sense. I also found a very helpful table in my Italian for Dummies book. The problem I'm having now is the confusion that comes from the pronouns being the same or similar to other words. Now I have to think of gli and lo etc. as pronouns as well. That's just mean.

I'm also challenged by how to construct a sentence using pronouns and verbs. They go in a very different order than what I'm used to. I just need to practice. Meaning talking to my dog.

Thanks again for clearing the fog in my brain.

[zia Giovi]

MFC I will need your help this time: I do not understand when to place the direct object pronoun when there is an infinitive in the phrase. For example: Hai voglia di mangiarle? or Non mi piace comprarli. When is the good time to place these pronomi diretti at these places? I have my final exam so I will bother you this week

 

Edit: in my book, they say: In two-verb constructions with an infinitive, drop the final -e and attach the pronoun to the end of the infinitive... What do they mean by "In two-verb constructions?" Do they mean passato prossimo only or...?

 

In the examples above you have two verbs, indeed (even if the sentence is one!):

"hai voglia" di "mangiare" (quelle cose)

non mi "piace" "comprare" (quegli oggetti)

now you drop the final "E" of the infinitive verb and you add the pronoun

"hai voglia" di "mangiarLE"

non mi "piace" "comprarLI"

The pronoun (LE or LI) simply replaces an explicit direct object (QUELLE COSE or QUEGLI OGGETTI).

My suggestion is that when you find a verbal predicate made by two verbs, you try to ask you this question "is it possible to replace the direct object with a pronoun"?

If it's possible, you drop the final "E" of the infinitive verb and you add the pronoun (choosing the right one according to gender and number!)

I remind you that a lot of verbs (called in Italian "verbi servili" or "verbi modali" or "verbi fraseologici") ALWAYS have an infinitive verb after the personal verb: the main ones are DOVERE, POTERE, VOLERE, SAPERE and for these ones you can apply the rule of the clitic pronoun instead of the direct object

In general, you can consider "servili" all the verbal forms meaning duty (DOVERE), power or capability (POTERE), will (VOLERE), knowledge (SAPERE)

In the examples above, "hai voglia" is equal to "VUOI" (volere), and "non mi piace" is equal to "non VOGLIO" (VOLERE)

 

Thank you for the clitic advice. I have had time to wrap my brain around it for a few days, and it's making more sense. My lesson only called them clitics, not pronouns. So you all helped me a lot simply by calling them pronouns. I began seeing them in a way that made sense. I also found a very helpful table in my Italian for Dummies book. The problem I'm having now is the confusion that comes from the pronouns being the same or similar to other words. Now I have to think of gli and lo etc. as pronouns as well. That's just mean.

I'm also challenged by how to construct a sentence using pronouns and verbs. They go in a very different order than what I'm used to. I just need to practice. Meaning talking to my dog.

Thanks again for clearing the fog in my brain.

 

You are right, some words have more than one function: in this case "gli" and "lo" can be both articles and pronouns (and clitic pronouns, sometimes).

Let's say that when "gli" or "lo" are followed by a noun they are articles (gli sposi sono felici), if they are followed by a verb (gli dico di sì) or they close the whole sentence (non è una cosa da dirgli), then they are pronouns.

Sometimes the spelling can help you: some words have a different spelling according to their function ("la" is an article, "là" is an adverb, "se" is a conjunction, "sè" is a pronoun, "da" is a preposition, "dà" is a verb at present tense, "da'" is a verb at imperative tense, "fa" is a noun, "fa'" is a verb), but probably I'm going too far!

[RayaBadran]

In the examples above you have two verbs, indeed (even if the sentence is one!):

"hai voglia" di "mangiare" (quelle cose)

non mi "piace" "comprare" (quegli oggetti)

now you drop the final "E" of the infinitive verb and you add the pronoun

"hai voglia" di "mangiarLE"

non mi "piace" "comprarLI"

The pronoun (LE or LI) simply replaces an explicit direct object (QUELLE COSE or QUEGLI OGGETTI).

My suggestion is that when you find a verbal predicate made by two verbs, you try to ask you this question "is it possible to replace the direct object with a pronoun"?

If it's possible, you drop the final "E" of the infinitive verb and you add the pronoun (choosing the right one according to gender and number!)

I remind you that a lot of verbs (called in Italian "verbi servili" or "verbi modali" or "verbi fraseologici") ALWAYS have an infinitive verb after the personal verb: the main ones are DOVERE, POTERE, VOLERE, SAPERE and for these ones you can apply the rule of the clitic pronoun instead of the direct object

In general, you can consider "servili" all the verbal forms meaning duty (DOVERE), power or capability (POTERE), will (VOLERE), knowledge (SAPERE)

In the examples above, "hai voglia" is equal to "VUOI" (volere), and "non mi piace" is equal to "non VOGLIO" (VOLERE)

 

 

 

You are right, some words have more than one function: in this case "gli" and "lo" can be both articles and pronouns (and clitic pronouns, sometimes).

Let's say that when "gli" or "lo" are followed by a noun they are articles (gli sposi sono felici), if they are followed by a verb (gli dico di sì) or they close the whole sentence (non è una cosa da dirgli), then they are pronouns.

Sometimes the spelling can help you: some words have a different spelling according to their function ("la" is an article, "là" is an adverb, "se" is a conjunction, "sè" is a pronoun, "da" is a preposition, "dà" is a verb at present tense, "da'" is a verb at imperative tense, "fa" is a noun, "fa'" is a verb), but probably I'm going too far!

 

You're golden omg thank you

[crazyaboutmika]

I love my newborn thread

So do I

Ho anche

[zia Giovi]

You're golden omg thank you

 

You're welcome, honey

[RayaBadran]

Hey and I have another one: I'm now in the chapter of the usage of ci or ne. Is it still ok if I use the ci that, let's say goes like this: "No, non ci voglio andare" instead of "No, non voglio andarci " Is the first form correct?

[Log lady]

Hey and I have another one: I'm now in the chapter of the usage of ci or ne. Is it still ok if I use the ci that, let's say goes like this: "No, non ci voglio andare" instead of "No, non voglio andarci " Is the first form correct?

 

Absolutely