Let's talk POLITICS ( NO FIGHTS)

[Kalas]

Have you read the book? Because very clearly, at the end of the chapter, he calculates the number of people saved from homicide through legalization of abortion versus the number of babies killed through legalization of abortion. The number of babies killed was higher. He makes that very clear that this isn't supposed to be a "+ for abortion", because more lives were actually lost.

 

EDIT:

To add to that, when he compares babies aborted to people saved from homicide, he doesn't even count each baby as one person. As a compromise, he calculates that 1 person equals 100 fetuses. And even then, the difference between fetuses and homicide victims is extremely high.

 

 

Yes I know that, but I don't consider abortion as a life lost. And I know the author of the book doesn't think that the quoted statement should be used as a "+" for abortion, that is my own opinion.

[kk448]

 

Do you really believe that? Really? How old are you? That sounds like

such a punishment. You broke the rules and therefore you (and your

bastard child) must pay the price. Bleah.

 

In the world I live in there are 12-year-olds who have

sex. I'm not saying that's right -- I don't think it is.

But it happens. And you can't convince me that there is a 12-year-old alive who is ready to raise a child. No way.

 

I was 22 when I got married, and there is NO WAY I was ready for a child.

I didn't have my son until I was 32. If I had had a child sooner, I would

have dealt with it, but READY for it? ESPECIALLY if I saw it as punishment

for having sex? Sheesh.

 

Yes, I do really believe that. I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't. Though, as much as I've been questioned on it, I guess I'm wrong.

 

What's with this having a child is punishment? All I'm saying is that if you made a child then you should raise that child.

 

And I absolutely do not think 12 year-olds should be having sex. That's ridiculous (though true).

[kk448]

Wanna know something neat? There's a gate in Jerusalem called the "Eye of the Needle", and lots of people think Jesus was referring to that. Because it's so low, that for a man to pass through it, both he and his camel are kneeling, and they have to leave their goods and baggage on one side. So it is possible, but he just needs to drop all of his posessions at the gate.

 

I thought that was interesting. My dad's Jewish, and he told me that a long time ago.

 

My dad told me too, although he's not Jewish.

[babspanky]

Yes, I do really believe that. I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't. Though, as much as I've been questioned on it, I guess I'm wrong.

What's with this having a child is punishment? All I'm saying is that if you made a child then you should raise that child.

 

And I absolutely do not think 12 year-olds should be having sex. That's ridiculous (though true).

 

It's not wrong! It's your opinion. I don't agree with you personally, but that doesn't make it wrong. You said that tongue in cheek, right?

[rockinbabzz]

American or not, what's the difference? To not discuss an issue with someone of a different nationality purley because they are AMERCICAN is really disturbing and sort of sad...

 

I'm sorry to drag this into the dicussion again, but I would just like explain myself, I don't have anything against Americans, one of my best friends ever is from NY and I even had a boyfriend from California, it's just that what I, being a Dutch woman, find completely normal, is shocking and weird for a lot Americans, like sex before marriage, everyone in here does that, even very well raised, christian people. It's just that I (and with me almost the entire of Europe) have a completely different view on life in general, and when i discuss such things with American people usually it ends up just going 'I don't agree with you, you Dutch slut' 'I don't agree with you either, you prudish American idiot'

I'm not saying anyone in here said stuff like that, I was talking about previous experiences.

[cubitus]

I support Hillary (i love her ) i think she's an amaizing woman , she helped Bill during his presidency and seriously a woman at the head of the most powerful country in the world why not ?! it makes such a nice change even though my opinion is worthless seing as im not american (and don't even want to be one )

[MaRisOl]

I'm sorry to drag this into the dicussion again, but I would just like explain myself, I don't have anything against Americans, one of my best friends ever is from NY and I even had a boyfriend from California, it's just that what I, being a Dutch woman, find completely normal, is shocking and weird for a lot Americans, like sex before marriage, everyone in here does that, even very well raised, christian people. It's just that I (and with me almost the entire of Europe) have a completely different view on life in general, and when i discuss such things with American people usually it ends up just going 'I don't agree with you, you Dutch slut' 'I don't agree with you either, you prudish American idiot'

I'm not saying anyone in here said stuff like that, I was talking about previous experiences.

 

hey well i know what you mean because i live in Europe and actually i'm mexican so in a way i'm american and that kind of things shocked me when i arrived here but the world is free and in each country or continent things, traditions, etc... are different and that doesn't mean i do it as well lol but i think that everyone has the right to do whatever they want as long as they don't break the laws so people have to realize that in the world exist a big diversity of ideas therefore accept them too no matter whatever it is...

[guapo!]

hey well i know what you mean because i live in Europe and actually i'm mexican so in a way i'm american and that kind of things shocked me when i arrived here but the world is free and in each country or continent things, traditions, etc... are different and that doesn't mean i do it as well lol but i think that everyone has the right to do whatever they want as long as they don't break the laws so people have to realize that in the world exist a big diversity of ideas therefore accept them too no matter whatever it is...

 

 

Europeans are definitely more open minded than most Americans. It's better to make love than war If some people don't agree with sex before marriage, they don't have to accept it, just tolerate people who practice it. Tolerance is the key. maybe this thread wouldn't have go so far if people were more tolerant.

[Wendi]

Europeans are definitely more open minded than most Americans. It's better to make love than war If some people don't agree with sex before marriage, they don't have to accept it, just tolerate people who practice it. Tolerance is the key. maybe this thread wouldn't have go so far if people were more tolerant.

 

I think tolerance and respect are very important - agree to be

different, but politely.

[guapo!]

I think tolerance and respect are very important - agree to be

different, but politely.

 

 

yep.. we are different.. it would be boring if we all had the same opinions, we just have to accept each other with our differences.

[Guest]

I'm sorry to drag this into the dicussion again, but I would just like explain myself, I don't have anything against Americans, one of my best friends ever is from NY and I even had a boyfriend from California, it's just that what I, being a Dutch woman, find completely normal, is shocking and weird for a lot Americans, like sex before marriage, everyone in here does that, even very well raised, christian people. It's just that I (and with me almost the entire of Europe) have a completely different view on life in general, and when i discuss such things with American people usually it ends up just going 'I don't agree with you, you Dutch slut' 'I don't agree with you either, you prudish American idiot'

I'm not saying anyone in here said stuff like that, I was talking about previous experiences.

 

I'm not shocked by your opinion because you're Dutch. I'm not even really that shocked. The only thing that shocks me outside of the states is that fact that you can say 'fcuk' on TV there. It's not shocking, it's just like ":shocked: They didn't bleep that!"

 

And as far as sex before marriage, most people here do it. I only know one person who's a virgin in my entire circle of friends.

[rockinbabzz]

I'm not shocked by your opinion because you're Dutch. I'm not even really that shocked. The only thing that shocks me outside of the states is that fact that you can say 'fcuk' on TV there. It's not shocking, it's just like ":shocked: They didn't bleep that!"

 

And as far as sex before marriage, most people here do it. I only know one person who's a virgin in my entire circle of friends.

 

Really? Ok that's a surprise to me then. I'm kinda glad to hear that actually.

[annabelle]

Wow, this is really interesting thread. I'm quite interested in politics and I'm also a member of Young Liberal Democrats.

Well, to be honest I'm too lazy to read through the whole thread but I see you are mostly talking about abortion and gay marriage.

So here are my two cents.

 

I'm pro-choice when it comes to abortion. But not when women use it as a contraception, but when it just happens. You know what I mean.

Try to imagine these scenarios- a girl gets raped. Would you really force her to keep that child that will always remind her of her personal tragedy? Or when an adult woman (and by that I mean a woman somewhere in her late 40's). Will she really decide to keep a baby? Knowing all the risk. Or what if they see that the child is handicapped or seriously ill?

And- how many teenagers have sex? Lots! But are they ready for children? No way, at least I doubt it.

I'm 22 and if I got pregnant (and I use all the protection possible) I would definitely decide for abortion. Simply because I' m NOT ready and if one day I already decide to have babies, I will have them because I will WANT to have them and because I will be READY for them.

Not long ago one (luckily) ex- minister suggested that we should PAY for abortion!! That was just one of the most foolish ideas/suggestion of our momentary government. When I first heard for this I almost fell off my chair! It was absurd and we were lucky enough to get rid of this moron minister.

 

Gay marriage. I'm absolutely for it! How can anyone say that this is a bad thing? I think they could adopt as well, simply because I believe that two loving men/women can do a better job raising a baby than a ''normal''/straight couple that's fighting/drinking/... all the time.

[MaRisOl]

well yes i mean all the world is almost the same in a way because we know that a lot of young people also our friends are not virgins any more (americans) the difference is that some people hide it...

[mandilambi]

For real, Sarie. I'd say people have sex outside of marriage more than they stay a virgin until marriage. I find it quite humorous that we're seen as prudes, honestly.

 

As a woman that is remaining a virgin until I get married, I would just like to say that I know tons of people who have had sex outside of marriage and even though I don't agree with it, it doesn't affect my interactions and overall friendships with people. What other people do in private is none of my business and I really could care less. Just don't try to make me feel I am inferior because I am not going along with the norm.

[Guest]

For real, Sarie. I'd say people have sex outside of marriage more than they stay a virgin until marriage. I find it quite humorous that we're seen as prudes, honestly.

 

As a woman that is remaining a virgin until I get married, I would just like to say that I know tons of people who have had sex outside of marriage and even though I don't agree with it, it doesn't affect my interactions and overall friendships with people. What other people do in private is none of my business and I really could care less. Just don't try to make me feel I am inferior because I am not going along with the norm.

 

Exactly. The only time one of my friends having sex really bothered me is when I found out she was doing it for free concert tickets. Then I was like "Oh.. that's.... aww. :sad:"

 

And I don't know how we can be looked at as prudes, either. Just because we bleep the word on TV doesn't mean people don't do it!

 

In Massachusetts, they're offering birth control to 10 year old girls.

[lovempls]

I'm sorry to drag this into the dicussion again, but I would just like explain myself, I don't have anything against Americans, one of my best friends ever is from NY and I even had a boyfriend from California, it's just that what I, being a Dutch woman, find completely normal, is shocking and weird for a lot Americans, like sex before marriage, everyone in here does that, even very well raised, christian people. It's just that I (and with me almost the entire of Europe) have a completely different view on life in general, and when i discuss such things with American people usually it ends up just going 'I don't agree with you, you Dutch slut' 'I don't agree with you either, you prudish American idiot'

I'm not saying anyone in here said stuff like that, I was talking about previous experiences.

 

Ha, I learned about this in a class I took.

 

America was founded by Puritans. Those morals helped to shape the ideology we have here. It's why talking about sex in public is like taboo and nudity isn't allowed on broadcast TV and stuff like that. Americans and American culture IN GENERAL, not always, is more uptight about nudity and sex. Yay for the Puritans.

[dcdeb]

Yes, I do really believe that. I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't. Though, as much as I've been questioned on it, I guess I'm wrong.

 

What's with this having a child is punishment? All I'm saying is that if you made a child then you should raise that child.

 

And I absolutely do not think 12 year-olds should be having sex. That's ridiculous (though true).

 

Well, I didn't mean to imply that you were "wrong." Sorry if it came

off that way. I just was saying that

didn't agree with you. What you said was this:

 

Well, I think that those young girls should be responsible not to get pregnant. It may sound harsh, but in my opinion if you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to raise a child.

 

Yes, girls SHOULD be responsible -- there are plenty of ways to

prevent pregnancy. But sometimes accidents happen. And then...?

 

What I was trying to say, maybe I said it badly, is that just because you're

old enough to have sex, doesn't mean that you're old enough to

raise a child. And saying that if you "made" the child then you should

take responsibility and raise the child, sounds good on paper, and in

theory I agree with you. You *should* be accountable for your actions.

But if you're 12 or 13 or 14 and you get pregnant, you should not be

forced to raise the child. I don't condone abortion as a means of birth

control, but I do think that for some individuals and situations

it might be the right

choice, and I would rather that the option remain a legal one.

 

It's not wrong! It's your opinion. I don't agree with you personally, but that doesn't make it wrong. You said that tongue in cheek, right?

 

I think she probably did, Bab -- because as I said above, I don't mean

to imply that she's wrong. An opinion can't be right or wrong. I was

just expressing my opinion that I disagreed with hers.

 

I think tolerance and respect are very important - agree to be

different, but politely.

 

Exactly! And now I'm going to excuse myself from the rest of

this discussion

because for a moment there I forgot that this was the MIKA Fan Club

forum and not a political/controversial subject debate forum...

almost forgot why I come here. Sorry about that...

 

dcdeb

[Scut Monkey]

I haven't seen this thread until now. I currently don’t have the time to address all of the topics so for now I’ll only address the topic of abortion and sex, before you all move away from the subject. Tomorrow I’ll address the other topics.

 

 

On the subject of abortion, you've all completely missed the point. It's not about whether abortion is 'right' or 'wrong', it's clear that there is no one definition of right and wrong and that different people have different opinions. It's about whether women should have the freedom to decide whether they think that it's right or wrong. I don't think that one group should force another group to live by their beliefs. It's presumptuous to think that you know what is best for another person.

 

I completely agree with what Babs said:

 

I can understand how someone can disagree with abortion, but not how they can expect others to live by their beliefs.

 

As an aside, I don't agree with people touting adoption as the answer to all unplanned pregnancy problems. While it works wonderfully for some people it doesn't for other people. Everyone is different so no one solution will apply to everyone. That's why we need all options to be open.

 

I also think that some people here have a very rose-tinted view of pregnancy and childbirth. I've seen people discuss what happens after a child is born but not the actual process of carrying a child for 9 months then giving birth to it. It's an involving and emotional experience that deserves just as much attention as the abortion process or the adoption process.

 

I also don't appreciate the fact that most of the discussion on sex education, contraception and abstinence revolved around women. It is both men and women's responsibility.

 

With regards to SEX, I disagree with most of the views expressed in this thread. Most of the time people don't have sex because they want to have children, they have sex because their body craves it and satisfying a craving is enjoyable (the same goes for satisfying every other physiological drive e.g. hunger, thirst, relieving pain, etc.). There is nothing wrong with wanting to fulfill a physiological need to have sex. To say that you deserve to be punished because you fulfilled a physiological drive is very unfair. A person can be mature enough to have sex but not mature enough to raise a child. While some people are able to abstain from sex until they are ready to have children, most people are not. Until humans no longer have a sex drive: 1) the policy of abstinence will never work and 2) it's harmful to make people feel guilty for doing what comes naturally to them. I don't like the negativity that surrounds sex. The statements of 'well if you're going to have sex then you deserve what you get' are essentially saying 'if you're going to do what comes naturally to you then you deserve what you get' which is unfair IMO. While humans have some control over their actions, it's not fair for a person who demonstrates more control to put themself on a pedestal/moral higher ground and look down on a person who demonstrates less of it.

 

 

Tomorrow I'll talk about gay rights, female politicians, war, and capital punishment. Until then, good night.

[Christine]

I just got a little upset when it was brought up right away that I didn't believe in sex before marriage (which isn't true) and that the topic shouldn't be discussed with Americans. Mostly, the bolded stuff was most offensive (in my opinion).

 

I haven't read the rest of this thread and I don't want to get any further into topics like legalizing abortion.

 

But you did quote me previously as saying it was offensive to you that I stated people often hold strong beliefs because that's what they've been taught their entire lives and in many cases they cannot be swayed by rational argument.

 

I was referring to all people with all strong beliefs, not Americans and their beliefs in particular. It's equally true on both sides of the argument. Canadians have certain values because that's the what they've been taught their whole lives and Americans have a different set of values because that's what they've been taught their entire lives.

 

When you can't agree on basic premises, there is no way to advance the argument on either side. For instance my views on abortion are predicated on completely different concepts of life, humanity, spirituality, etc. than someone who is pro-life.

 

Sarie and Melanie were asking people to present facts to support their views, but the "facts" are almost entirely beside the point whether you're pro-choice or pro-life.

 

In the absence of religious teachings and after spending years studying neurology, I view life, pain, pleasure, and many other aspects of the human experience as a physiological thing - a complex set of chemical reactions. This means that for me a group of cells with human DNA does not necessarily constitute a "person", even though it may be human.

 

If you believe that there is more to life than physiology and look at conception in terms of destiny (Melanie said "it was meant to be"), then there is no convincing argument for what I believe that can be communicated to you on a Mika fan club message board.

 

It's simply the way I view the world after my almost 40 years of living, learning and being exposed to people who have similar views.

[BonjourMika1990]

So from everyone's perspective, I hope this thread is ok... Things got way heated yesterday, but I still felt like people were willing to listen atleast and not be nasty...

 

So from my view, this thread is a good one because it's nice to get other views and maybe help in practicing empathy with people who don't share your opinions.

 

Theres always a way to discuss issues and not be too offensive... and I think FOR THE MOST PART we've done that:thumb_yello:

[Sarah_loves_mika]

I can't wait for the day that the UK get Labour out and Conservative in.... Everytime that Labour are in, the country goes downhill. Then it takes 20 years for Conservative to pull it back.

 

Anyway, this thread is probably American??? Im not sure! Just had to say my bit!

[BonjourMika1990]

I can't wait for the day that the UK get Labour out and Conservative in.... Everytime that Labour are in, the country goes downhill. Then it takes 20 years for Conservative to pull it back.

 

Anyway, this thread is probably American??? Im not sure! Just had to say my bit!

 

Oh no, it's for everyone in all countries:wink2:

[lilmot]

I haven't seen this thread until now. I currently don’t have the time to address all of the topics so for now I’ll only address the topic of abortion and sex, before you all move away from the subject. Tomorrow I’ll address the other topics..

Me too, before the thread moves on I will just state my humble opinion and ideas.

 

I am American and I am pro-choice. Most of the Americans I know are pro-choice also. I say this because it bothered me what people were assuming about Americans on this thread, not because it is an argument for what is right or wrong.

 

I am pro-choice for many reasons which have already been clearly stated by others more capable than I am at clearly stating things (for example, the Monkeys). However for me...IMHO I am sure that the soul comes into the body during birth and leaves the body during death. I do understand if you have different beliefs from mine and see the fetus as something different than you would choose not to be pro-choice. I will gladly give you that choice, but thank God, no one has the ability at this point to choose for me. I will fight very strongly for that particular choice and freedom.

 

I am also a mother. I made a choice to have a child; I also made a choice to keep my child. I make choices everyday regarding my child. Hopefully most of my choices are good. Life (to me) is a very sacred choice and one that I would never change. Thank God, it was MY choice and not someone else telling me that I didn’t have a choice. IMO it makes life more precious, more sacred, and more real. And I do very strongly agree with what the pro-choice people have said on this thread. Scut__Monkey says it very well here…..

 

 

On the subject of abortion, you've all completely missed the point. It's not about whether abortion is 'right' or 'wrong', it's clear that there is no one definition of right and wrong and that different people have different opinions. It's about whether women should have the freedom to decide whether they think that it's right or wrong. I don't think that one group should force another group to live by their beliefs. It's presumptuous to think that you know what is best for another person.

 

 

I also think that some people here have a very rose-tinted view of pregnancy and childbirth. I've seen people discuss what happens after a child is born but not the actual process of carrying a child for 9 months then giving birth to it. It's an involving and emotional experience that deserves just as much attention as the abortion process or the adoption process.

 

I also don't appreciate the fact that most of the discussion on sex education, contraception and abstinence revolved around women. It is both men and women's responsibility.

 

 

Tomorrow I'll talk about gay rights, female politicians, war, and capital punishment. Until then, good night.

 

Wow, all of that tomorrow? I will have to set aside some reading time....

[Kalas]

Scut Monkey: You are wise. I totally agree with you, and I hope someday I will be able to share my viuws in a way as good as yours.