P.E.T.A People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

[Oakie Doke]

There's no need to cough as if I was praising them to be "ALL Perfect."

 

I was simply pointing out something I think they do which I strongly agree with. And I do believe they might actually put the animals down after 30 days here in Victoria too, which I find incredibly sad.

 

But that's not the RSPCA's fault. That goes back on what I wrote about pet owners allowing for 1 or 2 litters then getting YOUR pet fixed. The RSPCA isn't wildly breeding animals so they can put them down.

 

They are trying to avoid such situations by selling pets already fixed.

 

I know I just felt like pointing it out. And I obviously really hate shelters that euthanise after a period. I still love what the RSPCA does, and I fricking love the TV show but I'd rather support a local no-kill shelter or wildlife hospital. (This is so not at you, btw, it's at SPCAs/PETA) Animal's lives aren't statistics, dammit. So what if you can have a higher rate of re-homing if all you give up on anything that isn't a puppy or popular breed that finds a home right away. The animal has to suit the frigging owner, and 90% of the time that match takes a heck of a lot longer than a month. The cost of vaccinating, sterilising and euthanising an animal is a lot more than the cost of building a few more cages and buying some food, but that doesn't look as good on the books.

 

And people who don't neuter their animals are insane.

 

That I am Kelz ... as you know, I live in the Aussie bush so .... having a cat here would be detrimental re: our bird & lizard life .... we have trained our dogs not to chase/harm wildlife .... anyway, that being said ... I grew up in an outer suburb of Melbourne & I lived in an animal menagerie !!!

 

My mum had been a vet assistant in her early years & she was pretty animal 'crazy', so as a kid, at one stage we had 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 sheep, (suburbia remember) a cockatoo, a budgie, goldfish & a terrapin or two !!! (occasional guinea pigs etc. as well) AND we used to go on holiday w/them all in a VW Combie !!!!! ....... *no wonder hk is still crazy now* ... hehehehe !!

Hehehe ... yeah, it was .... except dodging the sheep poo whilst getting in & out of the van was always a tad 'rubix-cube-ish' .... (not that that cube existed then) .... also, we had to revive the budgie after one particularly cold trip to the snow .... *truuuuuuuuuuuuuuueeeee !!!!!*

 

Holy crap! That is hilarious! You took your sheep on holidays! !

 

We've eaten meat for milleniums and animal-farming has existed for thousands of years. I remember this speech I had to translate when working as an interpreter. Not my ideas, thus, but I thought it was funny enough. The guy, a scientist, was saying that if humans didn't eat meat, loads of animal species would have disappeared a while back , like pigs. That some sorts of species would have never appeared (like dogs, because their first aim was to watch over the herds, which led to their domestication) etc etc etc. Quite ironic.

 

The kind of archaic thinking of this first sentence is the only reason society still eats meat, experiments on animals, etc. If we've been keeping slaves, oppressing women, whatever for X amount of years, does that make it right? Thousands of years ago animals lived in pastures and lived proper lives, now they are treated as a commodity and are genetically manipulated to grow as fast and big as possible, in the smallest, easiest to maintain environment on the cheapest food, killed in the most economical way, to bring the cheapest possible meat to a society that has the intelligence and capabilities to not need it.

 

Pigs, sheep, cows, chickens would not have dissapeared because, like dogs, they are intelligent animals and capable of forming connections with humans, and I can think of numerous people who keep them as pets. Besides, extinction is a normal part of nature, and they'd be better of not existing than existing in suffering with no true purpose in life.

 

And my reasoning about killing a thousand mice myself for the benefit of medical progress remains the same with any kind of animal. When science is ready and tests can be conducted on lab-grown tissues or organs, it will of course be very different, but these techniques aren't advanced enough yet so...

 

But they are, scientists are just too archaic to accept them. That and certain ... groups prefer creating animals with diseases to test things on to using 'unnnatural' human tissues or ones that 'could have been alive' (stem cells, stem cells, stem cells). I know someone who has done a LOT of research into the use of animals in science and all species of animals are different enough from us that testing things on them provides no conclusive predictivity for how anything will work in humans.

 

Oh and if you allow me to use very far-fetched arguments, when you think of all the pesticides used to grow a single lettuce, and all of the insects that get poisoned in the process + the damage it causes to the environment, I don't really think being a vegetarian is more animal-friendly. Unless you are a bio-vegetarian of course

 

I'll let you do it ... but I'll also remind you that livestock eat plant crops that need pesticides to grow too, and for each kg of meat a heck of a lot more plants/pesticides have gone into it that a kg of veggie-patty

 

and vice versa- when veggies are being pain in the ass when trying to convince one un-veggie.

 

Sorry, do I sound annoying? I'm not trying to be. I'm not trying to convince anyone. They started it, I can't help but reply

 

I agree in some way, but yet the leather is mainly just the side product of meat industry, right? And IMO that's quite different than fur.

 

Most of the leather comes from India and China where there are no (enforced) animal welfare laws, so the animals are massively abused. For the leather that comes from local meat/dairy industries, the industries wouldn't survive without the leather sales, so you're still supporting the industry by buying it. And you're still wearing a dead animal, they're kinda similar

[Niki27]

The kind of archaic thinking of this first sentence is the only reason society still eats meat, experiments on animals, etc. If we've been keeping slaves, oppressing women, whatever for X amount of years, does that make it right? Thousands of years ago animals lived in pastures and lived proper lives, now they are treated as a commodity and are genetically manipulated to grow as fast and big as possible, in the smallest, easiest to maintain environment on the cheapest food, killed in the most economical way, to bring the cheapest possible meat to a society that has the intelligence and capabilities to not need it.

 

I do agree the farming techniques suck, but I disagree stating that humans are omnivores is archaic thinking. It's been proven that meat contains proteins which are important for us, especially for the brain development in babies and younglings.

 

Pigs, sheep, cows, chickens would not have dissapeared because, like dogs, they are intelligent animals and capable of forming connections with humans, and I can think of numerous people who keep them as pets. Besides, extinction is a normal part of nature, and they'd be better of not existing than existing in suffering with no true purpose in life.

 

Do you mean animals which are disappearing aren't smart enough to survive then? Really, look at the species which are threatened of extinction... they're usually those who are considered as "useless" by mankind. And extinction is part of nature to a certain extent, but we've reached a critical situation now, and I don't think the way humans act and destroy some species' natural habitats and stuff are a normal and healthy process.

 

But they are, scientists are just too archaic to accept them. That and certain ... groups prefer creating animals with diseases to test things on to using 'unnnatural' human tissues or ones that 'could have been alive' (stem cells, stem cells, stem cells). I know someone who has done a LOT of research into the use of animals in science and all species of animals are different enough from us that testing things on them provides no conclusive predictivity for how anything will work in humans.

 

I don't think scientists are too archaic to accept new techniques. Some governments are... (and the people who vote for them) Stem cell research is of course promising, but how can scientists work in right conditions when some "groups" are opposing all progress accusing researchers of killing babies ? I totally agree animals are genetically different and that testing drugs on them is not 100% accurate, but so far, i'm afraid that's the best thing we have.

 

I'll let you do it ... but I'll also remind you that livestock eat plant crops that need pesticides to grow too, and for each kg of meat a heck of a lot more plants/pesticides have gone into it that a kg of veggie-patty

 

Not sure about this. But again, we could find arguments and their opposite for everything said here... next thing I might tell you that vegeterian animal lovers might find themselves quite stupid when they realise they shouldn't give meat to their dogs and pets either and that they have to swap the leather lace for a plastic one

 

My point is vegetarianism isn't the solution. The solution is, imo, decent slaughtering techniques and some reflexion about the way we consume food nowadays. We do not need perfect bright-green salads nor do we need to kill 10 beefs instead of one just because we want 10 "filets" and will not agree to eat "second-quality" pieces of them.

It's all about balance

[rockinbabzz]

I really don't wanna stir up a 'fight' or anything but how can you say you're against animal cruelty if you're not even a vegetarian... I've been veggie since I was a kid, and a couple of years later my parents and brother stopped eating meat aswell.

I'm not a member of PETA or any animal organisation, I prefer to actually do something instead of just talking about it...

[Niki27]

Because I don't see the link between cruelty to animals and eating meat!

 

Have you stopped drinking milk? Look at the conditions cows live in in milking farms...

Have you stopped eating eggs? Look at these chicks piled up on one another in small cages...

Have you given up on leather?

 

If you want to be a veggie, I'm fine with this, but I don't understand why meat-eaters should be labbelled as people who don't like animals or don't care. There are, imo, better things to do to prevent cruelty to animals than stop eating them.

[Kelzy]

Because I don't see the link between cruelty to animals and eating meat!

 

Have you stopped drinking milk? Look at the conditions cows live in in milking farms...

Have you stopped eating eggs? Look at these chicks piled up on one another in small cages...

Have you given up on leather?

 

If you want to be a veggie, I'm fine with this, but I don't understand why meat-eaters should be labbelled as people who don't like animals or don't care. There are, imo, better things to do to prevent cruelty to animals than stop eating them.

I agree.

I was talking to a nice woman on the phone today (no one I know, just the operator of a government agency I had to call) and we ended up completely off topic and discussing diets etc. And we both agreed that meat is very important to the body as it's a high source of protein and iron or whatever else. We discussed "the old days" where they actually had to catch and kill an animal for the family to eat for a few days, quite often due to hunger, then once that was gone they would eat fruit or vegetables etc, until the next time. We didn't eat meat everyday. Animals weren't being killed in masses. To catch for the family was the norm. There was no one telling them what they were doing was ethically wrong because it's just how it always was and how nature implied it to be.

 

The problem these days is that the we no longer need to catch the prey ourselves. The spiritual lesson involved in it has vanished. I think back then there was more meaning to it than there is now. And that it possibly was done with more respect. (I'm no expert, it was merely a discussion)

 

Anyway, those people were our ancestors. It's not some other time or other place. It was people just like us minus all the comforts we have now.. That is how it was. And it's not all that long ago either. My father once told me about when he was a child and he had to kill the chickens for the family to eat. He is the oldest of 8 siblings and was therefore put in charge of this job. He was about 7 years old. He told me it was upsetting, but it had to be done.

 

I'd be surprised if any of you had been in a situation where you had to kill the chicken for the family otherwise you'd all starve.

 

Sorry, I may be rambling on a bit.

[Oakie Doke]

I do agree the farming techniques suck, but I disagree stating that humans are omnivores is archaic thinking. It's been proven that meat contains proteins which are important for us, especially for the brain development in babies and younglings.

 

It's archaic to say that because we've been farming for so long we should still be now. Yes, meat contains protiens and nutrients that are important to us, but legumes and other vegetables contain those exact same protiens and nutrients in higher concentrations and are healthier for you.

 

Do you mean animals which are disappearing aren't smart enough to survive then? Really, look at the species which are threatened of extinction... they're usually those who are considered as "useless" by mankind. And extinction is part of nature to a certain extent, but we've reached a critical situation now, and I don't think the way humans act and destroy some species' natural habitats and stuff are a normal and healthy process.

 

Humans are selfish creatures aren't we? We've bred all thse domestic species that have no hope of surviving without our help, and then we destroy the habitats of the all the wild animals just to make land/supplies for ourselves and our animals It isn't a healthy process, I agree 100%

 

I don't think scientists are too archaic to accept new techniques. Some governments are... (and the people who vote for them) Stem cell research is of course promising, but how can scientists work in right conditions when some "groups" are opposing all progress accusing researchers of killing babies ? I totally agree animals are genetically different and that testing drugs on them is not 100% accurate, but so far, i'm afraid that's the best thing we have.

 

How many scientists do you know? Have you tried explaining to an anatomy professor that despite the fact we've been doing it for years, it's not right to kill animals just to look at their insides? Have you tried explaining to a physiology professor that we don't actually need to torture animals to be able to understand what happens when you torture them? Or telling an experimenter that what they're doing serves no logical purpose? Seeing as we are talking about that last one, and I haven't , here's a quote:

 

These [*millions of boring articles I'm not going to force you to read*] show conclusively that almost all large-scale systematic reviews of the human utility of animal experimentation published in peer-reviewed biomedical journals have demonstrated that animal experiments are almost always of insufficient human predictivity to be of more than the most peripheral use in advancing human healthcare. Your lecturer and others may have contrary opinions, but it is important to make the distinction that these are opinions, not facts, and are contrary to the overwhelming body of existing scientific evidence.

 

It's not 100% accurate, it's less than 50% accurate, it's pointless because human tests need to be done afterwards anyway.

 

Aren't 'those' religious groups ridiculous? It's no more killing a baby than using contraception, and for them to be able to force their beliefs on greater society, in such a disadvantageous way ...

 

Not sure about this. But again, we could find arguments and their opposite for everything said here... next thing I might tell you that vegeterian animal lovers might find themselves quite stupid when they realise they shouldn't give meat to their dogs and pets either and that they have to swap the leather lace for a plastic one

 

Let's not get started on pet food, but lets just say, for extreme vegans, there are vegan pet-diets. But my animals eat meat and thats because I'm poor and it's still impractical in today's society to do otherwise.

 

My point is vegetarianism isn't the solution. The solution is, imo, decent slaughtering techniques and some reflexion about the way we consume food nowadays. We do not need perfect bright-green salads nor do we need to kill 10 beefs instead of one just because we want 10 "filets" and will not agree to eat "second-quality" pieces of them.

It's all about balance

 

But do you see decent slaughtering/raising techniques?

The problem is the money driven way we live, food animals will always be treated as a commodity, and their welfare will be sacrificed for profit.

Vegetarians are never going to wipe out or even really affect the meat industry, and that's why there's no point trying to 'convert' anyone. No one's doing it to single-handedly abolish the practice, they're all doing it for their own personal mental/physical/whatever well being.

 

Because I don't see the link between cruelty to animals and eating meat!

 

Have you stopped drinking milk? Look at the conditions cows live in in milking farms...

Have you stopped eating eggs? Look at these chicks piled up on one another in small cages...

Have you given up on leather?

 

If you want to be a veggie, I'm fine with this, but I don't understand why meat-eaters should be labbelled as people who don't like animals or don't care. There are, imo, better things to do to prevent cruelty to animals than stop eating them.

 

I think people who eat meat can care for animals!

And yes, of course there are plenty of things you can do other than not eating them!

But there is definately a direct link! Meat-animals are treated cruelly - and by eating that meat you are paying them to do it.

I understand that some people's way of seeing the world is in a way that if doing something isn't going to have a direct, visible impact, there is no point in doing it. I don't see it this way, but I can completely respect that, it makes you no less of a person in my eyes, and it's none of my business anyway.

However, I thrive on the feeling of liberation of not feeling any guilt, knowing I am not personally supporting things that are wrong.

BUT, I have not given up eggs or milk (I don't use leather though), and frankly I'm a bit jealous of those who have. One day, maybe. For now I can take comfort in at least supporting free-range hens ...

[Oakie Doke]

I agree.

I was talking to a nice woman on the phone today (no one I know, just the operator of a government agency I had to call) and we ended up completely off topic and discussing diets etc. And we both agreed that meat is very important to the body as it's a high source of protein and iron or whatever else. We discussed "the old days" where they actually had to catch and kill an animal for the family to eat for a few days, quite often due to hunger, then once that was gone they would eat fruit or vegetables etc, until the next time. We didn't eat meat everyday. Animals weren't being killed in masses. To catch for the family was the norm. There was no one telling them what they were doing was ethically wrong because it's just how it always was and how nature implied it to be.

 

The problem these days is that the we no longer need to catch the prey ourselves. The spiritual lesson involved in it has vanished. I think back then there was more meaning to it than there is now. And that it possibly was done with more respect. (I'm no expert, it was merely a discussion)

 

Anyway, those people were our ancestors. It's not some other time or other place. It was people just like us minus all the comforts we have now.. That is how it was. And it's not all that long ago either. My father once told me about when he was a child and he had to kill the chickens for the family to eat. He is the oldest of 8 siblings and was therefore put in charge of this job. He was about 7 years old. He told me it was upsetting, but it had to be done.

 

I'd be surprised if any of you had been in a situation where you had to kill the chicken for the family otherwise you'd all starve.

 

Sorry, I may be rambling on a bit.

 

Lol, look at the time difference between our posts I went and had dinner in the middle of writing

 

*decides to do a general lesson on legumes (oh, it's interesting )*

**cough* - taken from wikipedia*

• Well-known legumes include alfalfa, clover, peas, beans, lentils, lupins, and peanuts.
  
• The history of legumes is tied in closely with that of human civilization, appearing early in Asia, the Americas (the common bean, several varieties), and Europe (broad beans) by 6,000 BC, where they became a staple, essential for supplementing protein where there was not enough meat.
  
• Legume seed and foliage have a comparatively higher protein content than non-legume material ((*that means meat, too:wink2:*)), probably due to the additional nitrogen that legumes receive through nitrogen-fixation symbiosis.
  
• Legumes are good sources of iron and fiber.
  

Sorry, I could just see this might take some wikipedia help here. In society meat has been the traditional source of some proteins and stuff, but it is not the only (or most healthy/easiest) option.

 

But yeah, exactly. We had a good balance going, now we just eat takeaway and crap And somehow the tradition has come to meat at at least every dinner, which is totally not how it was. (And it also didn't come from a supermarket ).

 

That is cruel! I wonder if that's a time period thing or a living in a rural area thing (I assume he lived in a rural area, right?? ). It's obviously all a pretty new movement, animal rights/welfare, I mean. But - onward and upward, is say! (There's some kind of saying that I meant there, but I can't remember the words it is supposed to be, so let's just pretend)

[Kelzy]

Lol, look at the time difference between our posts I went and had dinner in the middle of writing

I noticed

*decides to do a general lesson on legumes (oh, it's interesting )*

**cough* - taken from wikipedia*

• Well-known legumes include alfalfa, clover, peas, beans, lentils, lupins, and peanuts.
  
• The history of legumes is tied in closely with that of human civilization, appearing early in Asia, the Americas (the common bean, several varieties), and Europe (broad beans) by 6,000 BC, where they became a staple, essential for supplementing protein where there was not enough meat.
  
• Legume seed and foliage have a comparatively higher protein content than non-legume material ((*that means meat, too*)), probably due to the additional nitrogen that legumes receive through nitrogen-fixation symbiosis.
  
• Legumes are good sources of iron and fiber.

Sorry, I could just see this might take some wikipedia help here. In society meat has been the traditional source of some proteins and stuff, but it is not the only (or most healthy/easiest) option.

*was expecting this after reading your last post*

Now you just need to suggest a way to cook them:wink2:

 

But yeah, exactly. We had a good balance going, now we just eat takeaway and crap And somehow the tradition has come to meat at at least every dinner, which is totally not how it was. (And it also didn't come from a supermarket ).

Exactly. It's the way life has become. So like every radical new age theory, it takes time for people to decide what suits them. This is a transition age. We're arguing about culture and the way of life for however many thousands of years..

There's a range of ages in this discussion and this movement is something that's getting bigger and bigger every year, but you have to remember, I wasn't raised in an environment where we were aware of such things, so I actually have to change the way I was raised into these new socially accepted/enforced habits. I'm not saying "I'm a meat eater and you can't change my mind" I'm saying "Put forward what makes you a vegetarian or vegan so I can understand why."

Another part of my phone call to centrelink today involved discussing products that are in simple everyday items like soaps and shampoo's which are carcinogenic. When I was a kid we never knew that! I've been using cancer causing products for 30 years! Off-Topic, but I'm trying to say that whilst I'm still young (30 is young, when you turn 30 you'll still feel young and say "Oh Kelzy was right") *continues* Whilst I'm still young, these topics here, from my point of view, are even younger.. mostly because it wasn't taught in school. We were taught the program and we were taught that teachers were right. And *shock horror* we didn't have access to the internet to prove them wrong.. (It didn't exist. )

 

That is cruel! I wonder if that's a time period thing or a living in a rural area thing (I assume he lived in a rural area, right?? ). It's obviously all a pretty new movement, animal rights/welfare, I mean. But - onward and upward, is say! (There's some kind of saying that I meant there, but I can't remember the words it is supposed to be, so let's just pretend)

 

Here, in Victoria. Where I live. No, not rural like on a farm. Times were tough. Mum lived on a chook farm. It was more rural. I'm talking 50 years ago. They mostly ate eggs, vegetables and chicken. They didn't have a fridge so any food they ate was kept in an icebox. Also, because fridges weren't a common household item there wasn't an easy way to keep meat cold. My grandparents worked 2 jobs, but that wasn't always enough so they would sell the chickens to get by. My fathers family would buy chooks off people like my mum's side and then have to kill, pluck and cook them. This is how people have survived for centuries. Animals for food were a form of trade and survival.

 

I guess the only reason people think they can point fingers and call meat eaters cruel is because now there are animals being kept and killed in a cruel way because society has demanded it. I personally do not want animals kept that way. I don't know if it happens around here. I will look into it now. I do buy free-range products already. I guess that's progress

 

Crap, I'm sounding like I'm an expert when in fact I'm not.. these are just my opinions of life as I know it.

[Oakie Doke]

I noticed

 

Dammit.

 

*was expecting this after reading your last post*

Now you just need to suggest a way to cook them

 

I don't know how to cook. My mummy cooks for me. Like this:

(lol, nice slogan there)

 

There's a range of ages in this discussion and this movement is something that's getting bigger and bigger every year, but you have to remember, I wasn't raised in an environment where we were aware of such things, so I actually have to change the way I was raised into these new socially accepted/enforced habits.

*didn't want my post to just be a massive quote so I've cut down, but I'm replying to the whole thing *

 

I don't think anyone has, yet! I'm pretty sure I was something like the second year to do that bioethics unit, and they've made it compulsory already, to make all students that will work with animals at some point think about the different issues and sides around animal use. I loved it.

 

Can I give you a BIG :msnslap: for being the person who is single-handedly responsible for making everything to do with centrelink a massive wait. :hmph:

 

I know, it's crazy to think how massively things change when at the time no one could ever imagine it changing.

However, Kelzy - right? Never! *refuses to believe until she is 30*

But wow, my brain finds it hard to comprehend that people alive today lived like that

Or that their chicken farm wouldn't have looked like like this

And your little dad didn't kill them quite like this: http://www.upc-online.org/townsend/22.jpg

What ever happened to the days (that were obviously not that long ago)when everybody in the community provided services to each other in the proper way like that?

 

I'm not saying "I'm a meat eater and you can't change my mind" I'm saying "Put forward what makes you a vegetarian or vegan so I can understand why."

 

Well, I never really decided for cruelty and stuff. But that's still a good reason, lol. To be honest, I'd just been researching into conscientious objection at my uni (like, being allowed to opt for alternatives to things that involve harming or killing animals, or using animals that died specially for you to use) and I was like "holy crap, no way am I going to cut up greyhounds that died for me to use - I love greyhounds!" and I showed the stuff to a friend at school and asked if they would do it, and they were like "probably not" and I was like "But what if that was your dog that you love being put down for you to look inside?" and they were like "Well that's different, because I know that dog". But what makes it different? The greyhound is no less intelligent, or deserving of a life or family to love and take care of it. Can you just pretend it never had a life/personality because you didn't meet it? So yeah, then I was thinking from that, well, I've never eaten sheep/lamb since my dad got his pet sheep, because they are so fantastic and intelligent with their personalities and everything, and so are the ones that aren't pets, buuut they just get fed up until they're big enough and then die. I would totally grieve if one of my dad's sheep died, and they are like 6 years old, to think people grow sheep just like them just to kill them and eat them is as intrinsically wrong as it would be to do the same with dogs and cats. Yeah, so going back to thinking about knowing the greyhounds personally, that just got me thinking like .. wtf, I'm just as ignorant when I think like "well, I don't personally know any cows, so I guess it's alright to eat them" But if I did then I totally wouldn't, and I know they are lovely, intelligent creatures. Yeah, that's just basically it. When I look at meat I just see a bit of an animal that a week ago or whatever (hehe, depending on how long it's been in the freezer), was alive and thinking, interacting with it's peers, it probably had friends and other cows that it didn't like, and probably a favourite patch of grass or shady tree that it liked to sit under (Or it WOULD have had those things, if it hadn't been raised in rubbish intensive conditions), and then it had it's life cut stupidly short just so I could sit here chewing on it's tasty tasty processed body, when I could just be chewing on my brocolli right there instead.

(I hope my train of thought isn't impossible to follow, lol)

Hey, you asked (kind of), can't say you didn't expect a massive boring story

Yeah yeah, but now I can see all the cruelty reasons too, lol.

 

I personally do not want animals kept that way. I don't know if it happens around here. I will look into it now. I do buy free-range products already. I guess that's progress

 

It is :-)

 

And I was pretty shocked when someone from AnimalsWest (like .. an animal rights group) talked to us in that class that I enjoyed so much about intensive farming in PERTH, and he showed us video that he had personally taken like a few months before in broiler chicken and caged hen farms, and it was just like the kind of peta videos you see, and he assured us these weren't worst-case ones, they were average. You know how you just sort of tell youself that for those videos/pictures/stories they go and find the worst possible cases, like, ones that surely closed down right after they shot the video? Ekk.

 

For the same count, though, I went to a dairy farm in highschool and it looked quite well set up, minus the fact they obviously kill the boy calves for veal..

 

I'm kind of looking a bit forward to my farm pracs (which I'm pretty sure start next year), but at the same time and kind of assuming I'll be able to use the conscientious thing to get out of the really bad stuff, because I've seen the checklist of things you need to have tried, and it's got all the ... cutting off chicken's beaks and pig's teeth, ears and tails, and mulesing and all of that horrible stuff. No thanks, they'll never get me to put animals through that unnecessary pain, but I am interested to get a good "behind the scenes" view of it all :-)

 

Crap, I'm sounding like I'm an expert when in fact I'm not.. these are just my opinions of life as I know it.

 

Haha, me too, me too. I haven't a clue. And I know I'm a hypocrite for not being vegan, so no one needs to point that one out

[Kelzy]

I don't know how to cook. My mummy cooks for me. Like this:

(lol, nice slogan there)

Slack.. and I'll try it one day next week.

Can I give you a BIG :msnslap: for being the person who is single-handedly responsible for making everything to do with centrelink a massive wait. :hmph:

Hey, she started it by suggesting I read a book by Sandra Cabot..

I know, it's crazy to think how massively things change when at the time no one could ever imagine it changing.

Technology is to blame. Without certain household products we'd still be living like they did 50 years ago..

However, Kelzy - right? Never! *refuses to believe until she is 30*

*does her best yoda impersonation*

see, you will, doke, oakie.

But wow, my brain finds it hard to comprehend that people alive today lived like that

Or that their chicken farm wouldn't have looked like like this

And your little dad didn't kill them quite like this: http://www.upc-online.org/townsend/22.jpg

What ever happened to the days (that were obviously not that long ago)when everybody in the community provided services to each other in the proper way like that?

No and No. Mum's farm wasn't anything like that and Dad wasn't ever cruel like that..

It's a sign of the times.. A very sad sign of the times..

 

Well, I never really decided for cruelty and stuff. But that's still a good reason, lol. To be honest, I'd just been researching into conscientious objection at my uni (like, being allowed to opt for alternatives to things that involve harming or killing animals, or using animals that died specially for you to use) and I was like "holy crap, no way am I going to cut up greyhounds that died for me to use - I love greyhounds!" and I showed the stuff to a friend at school and asked if they would do it, and they were like "probably not"

*Shortens incredibly long post*

*wakes up*

Ohh.. *rubs eyes*

I understand your point of view. I guess I'm still old-fashioned when it comes to the food-chain. I'd feel differently if the animals were eating us though.. I too, am a hypocrite then.

 

You know how you just sort of tell youself that for those videos/pictures/stories they go and find the worst possible cases, like, ones that surely closed down right after they shot the video? Ekk.

Yes, I do remember getting educated to some degree about slaughter houses in school. But it was very basic and didn't seem all that appalling at the time. Clearly, it was always much worse than they led us to believe.

For the same count, though, I went to a dairy farm in highschool and it looked quite well set up, minus the fact they obviously kill the boy calves for veal..

We went to a chicken farm. It was complete with adventure playground for the kids *cue sarcastic roll of eyes* I never saw the chickens. Only the eggs. The chicken farm was closed down a few years later. I always thought there was something not quite right about that place. I don't need an expert to tell me what it was now.

I'm kind of looking a bit forward to my farm pracs (which I'm pretty sure start next year), but at the same time and kind of assuming I'll be able to use the conscientious thing to get out of the really bad stuff, because I've seen the checklist of things you need to have tried, and it's got all the ... cutting off chicken's beaks and pig's teeth, ears and tails, and mulesing and all of that horrible stuff. No thanks, they'll never get me to put animals through that unnecessary pain, but I am interested to get a good "behind the scenes" view of it all :-)

I couldn't do that either.

I once saw a car hit a rabbit and I pulled over and turned around and went back to check if it had died. It was still alive, but barely. There was no way it would survive. I so badly wanted to put it out of it's misery. But couldn't bring myself to do it. So I sat there with it for 15 minutes as it passed away. I had my niece with me. I believe that she learnt something very valuable that day.

Haha, me too, me too. I haven't a clue. And I know I'm a hypocrite for not being vegan, so no one needs to point that one out

Meh.. I'm not judging you.

I think the most important thing in life is trying.

[Oakie Doke]

Slack.. and I'll try it one day next week.

 

Really? Some brands can be really dodgy, Frys is pretty good, but not their lentil-thingos.

 

Hey, she started it by suggesting I read a book by Sandra Cabot..

 

*blames you and this phone operator for single-handledly caused hours of suffering to hundreds*

 

Technology is to blame. Without certain household products we'd still be living like they did 50 years ago..

 

*glares at technology*

*hugs laptop tightly*

 

*does her best yoda impersonation*

see, you will, doke, oakie.

 

 

No and No. Mum's farm wasn't anything like that and Dad wasn't ever cruel like that..

It's a sign of the times.. A very sad sign of the times..

 

I reckon.

 

*wakes up*

Ohh.. *rubs eyes*

I understand your point of view. I guess I'm still old-fashioned when it comes to the food-chain. I'd feel differently if the animals were eating us though.. I too, am a hypocrite then.

 

I saw that coming

 

Yes, I do remember getting educated to some degree about slaughter houses in school. But it was very basic and didn't seem all that appalling at the time. Clearly, it was always much worse than they led us to believe.

We went to a chicken farm. It was complete with adventure playground for the kids *cue sarcastic roll of eyes* I never saw the chickens. Only the eggs. The chicken farm was closed down a few years later. I always thought there was something not quite right about that place. I don't need an expert to tell me what it was now.

 

For real? Oh, and we have youtube and peta to help us now

A playground? At least they made it school-friendly, that's a good priority to have

 

I couldn't do that either.

I once saw a car hit a rabbit and I pulled over and turned around and went back to check if it had died. It was still alive, but barely. There was no way it would survive. I so badly wanted to put it out of it's misery. But couldn't bring myself to do it. So I sat there with it for 15 minutes as it passed away. I had my niece with me. I believe that she learnt something very valuable that day.

 

That is the most horrible and lovely story

[Niki27]

Just one question... please don't throw a stone at me or whatever...

But don't you think letting an animal agonize for 15' is actually very cruel?

[happikali]

Just one question... please don't throw a stone at me or whatever...

But don't you think letting an animal agonize for 15' is actually very cruel?

:wub2:Not if it is being comforted with so much love & care

[IngievV]

*FUR

Against it, fake fur is just as pretty

 

*Puppy mills (other types of animal mills)

Very much against it since I'm a great lover of dogs

 

*Animal testing for drugs, medicines etc

Against, but sometimes animals are needed, however I prefer animal friendly methods

 

*Animals for food

Well, I eat meat so I can't really be against this

 

*General abuse in general like neglect

Against

[Ioana]

Just one question... please don't throw a stone at me or whatever...

But don't you think letting an animal agonize for 15' is actually very cruel?

 

are we moving on to sadism now?

 

Oh look,bunny's dying! Let's smile at it

 

 

I couldn't kill it in the caveman manner,but I'd go for an injection if it's there

[Niki27]

:wub2:Not if it is being comforted with so much love & care

 

I do hope you are joking

 

are we moving on to sadism now?

 

Oh look,bunny's dying! Let's smile at it

 

I couldn't kill it in the caveman manner,but I'd go for an injection if it's there

 

I would find it extremely hard to kill an animal too (except for spiders maybe) but if I was in front of an agonising animal I think I would put an end to its sufferings, even in the caveman's way if there's no other possibility.

[babspanky]

I do hope you are joking

 

 

 

I would find it extremely hard to kill an animal too (except for spiders maybe) but if I was in front of an agonising animal I think I would put an end to its sufferings, even in the caveman's way if there's no other possibility.

 

I don't even like killing spiders or flies and have been known to stop my car to make sure a fly gets off the windscreen before I speed up. Crazy, as I am probably killing loads of flies as I drive along.

And I agree, if I had to put an animal out of it's suffering, I wouldn't like to do it, but I think I would.

[Wendi]

I found a young rabbit - I think it had been hit by a car - we stopped

and took it to the vet. He said it had too many internal injuries, so I

paid for it to be put to sleep. I also will avoid killing anything if I can - I

move worms off the road, rescue flies from spiders webs - but............

I do kill wasps!! I am terrified of them!!

[Niki27]

I am also, Wendi. I got bit right under the chin once, where throat starts, and had to eat through a straw for 2 days because my throat and back of the mouth got terribly swollen

Since then, I can't say I'm a great fan of these insects anymore

[Shaza!]

Russell Brand won world's sexiest vegetarian with these guys last year.

[addicted2Mika]

I am a vegitarian living in the midwest and as you said that is hard! There is so much meat influence in my life but I am strong enough to defy it!

I feel very strongly aginst

~egg factories

~hog, cow, chicken feedlots

~animal abuse!

 

-addicted2Mika

[Kelzy]

Just one question... please don't throw a stone at me or whatever...

But don't you think letting an animal agonize for 15' is actually very cruel?

We were in the bush and all I had was a steering wheel lock device in my car. You know.. One of those long metal bars.. I held in over the dying rabbits head but I couldn't bring myself to do it. My thought at the time was "What if I hit it, but it doesn't die and I only make it suffer worse? Could I bring myself to hit it over the head again? And again? Until it is dead?"

I also had to think of the fact my very impressionable (10 year old at the time) niece was watching every move I made.

 

I still wouldn't be able to do it now.

 

What would you have done?

[*carrie*]

Russell Brand won world's sexiest vegetarian with these guys last year.

 

I love how you always bring him into a conversation

[Oakie Doke]

I wouldn't be able to bash an animal to death. Like Kelzy said, I have no clue how to do it in such a way that it would definately work, and it's just icky, especially with Kobiii (I assume) there...

But yes, it would be less cruel, if you could do it properly...

 

I found a young rabbit - I think it had been hit by a car - we stopped

and took it to the vet. He said it had too many internal injuries, so I

paid for it to be put to sleep.

 

Oh wow. I think (I have no idea, please correct me) there is quite a big difference to the way you see rabbits and foxes to here in Australia. Like, our government is actively trying to wipe them out. It's quite sick really, if they live in their native country they have a right to live and to be at least a little cared about, but not here. Of course, they're killing the native wildlife and such, but it's still crazy to think. Difficult topic really.

 

But there are hundreds of places that will take in injured/orphaned kangaroos or birds or whatever, but I can't think of a single place that would take in a fox or a rabbit or something. And I quite imagine a vet would be a bit like "I hope you're not going to release that if we treat it".

 

But wow, it's great you did that. I've taken in birds for the same thing, and see lots of birds like that. But you've really just made me realise the chances of ever seeing a wild rabbit getting treatment are pretty much nil, and that's sad.

 

and have been known to stop my car to make sure a fly gets off the windscreen before I speed up.

 

 

I also will avoid killing anything if I can - I

move worms off the road, rescue flies from spiders webs -

 

But-but, what about the spider? Do you give them a leaf back in place of it? Vegetarian spiders!

 

Russell Brand won world's sexiest vegetarian with these guys last year.

 

I didn't know that. That almost explains my friend's obsession with the guy. No, but he's still really weird.

 

Because I don't see the link between cruelty to animals and eating meat!

 

It's the way life has become. So like every radical new age theory, it takes time for people to decide what suits them. This is a transition age.

 

So I was thinking at work today () And I've decided to change what I said. My disagreement with the first quote, and agreement with the second. And it's for the same reason. Because vegetarianism in anything but a new idea or trend, and so in those times when scholars could see the reasons for it, there was not cruelty like there is now. I think in most cases the reason is not cruelty, but philosophy. But I don't know who I'm talking for here there are people who are vegetarian for health or for the environment, and surely for cruelty (and who would go back to eating meat if the animals weren't treated cruelly), buuuut, I think majority might be this. And this has been around for thousands of years really. And I think someone really needs at least a part of this thinking to be vegetarian, otherwhiles you would probably just eat 'cruelty free'.

*doesn't know that much about it so is going to google*

 

I hereby present, my poorly plagarised version of the main points of vegetarian history (with key point's bolded ):

• A vegetarian ideology was practiced among religious groups in Egypt around 3,200BC, with abstinence from flesh based upon karmic beliefs in reincarnation.
   
   
  
• Pythagorus, ancient Greek philosopher and mathmatician, born 580 BC, is given the credit as being the "Father of Vegetarianism." While wishing to avoid animal cruelty, he also saw the health advantages a meat-free diet. Pythagoras viewed vegetarianism as a key factor in peaceful human co-existence, putting forward the view that slaughtering animals brutalised the human soul. Since the word "vegetarian" was not used until the late 19th century, vegetarians were previously known as "Pythagoreans."
   
   
  
• In Asia, the tradition of not eating meat extends back much farther - its origins can be traced to eastern religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism. Buddhists believe that after death, the soul of a human may inhabit an animal; therefore, it naturally follows that they would abstain from killing animals for food. The second argument for vegetarianism comes from the prohibition against harming any living thing which is at the core of the Buddhist philosophy, expressed by Buddha in the Udana: "I have never yet met with anything that was dearer to anyone than his own self. Since to others, to each one for himself, the self is dear, therefore let him who desires his own advantage not harm another."
   
   
  
• Early Christianity brought with it ideas of human supremacy over all living things, but several unorthodox groups did break ranks. Christian thinkers argued that only people have free will, rationality, and souls, and that animals were placed on earth for the convenience and use of humans-views that are still accepted by the majority of Christians today.
   
   
  
• With the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century there emerged a new appraisal of man's place in the order of creation. Arguments that animals were intelligent feeling creatures were voiced and moral objections were raised as there was an increasing distaste for the mistreatment of animals. During these days, slaughter methods were extremely barbaric. Pigs were flogged to death with knotted rope to tenderise the carcass and hens were slit at the mouth, hung up and left to bleed to death.
   
   
  
• All the sources go into way too much detail after that. But basically, the point is it's been going in an out over and over. First because of ancient religions, then Christianity took over, so then because of cruelty to animals (oh yeah, so I lied, it was cruelty to animals to an extent, because we did used to be worse when we didn't realise/care that animals could think/feel), then people got too poor to be able to choose and just ate whatever they could (which was mostly veggies anyway), then after the depressiony-era is when all factory farming and stuff comes in. But I quite like that Buddha quote I underlined

 

Interesting list: http://www.veg-world.com/articles/famous.htm

 

'References':

http://chinesefood.about.com/od/vegetarian/a/history.htm

http://www.newveg.av.org/veghistory.htm

http://www.vegsoc.org/news/2000/21cv/ages.html

http://www.innvista.com/health/nutrition/diet/vhistory.htm

[Kelzy]

So Vegetarianism has existed throughout all of time, but it has definitely gone through stages and in cultures where it was more encouraged?

Just like now?