The Crowd Control Issue

[Ioana]

This is how capitalism works... people tend to assume that they'll be the one on top (of the stage), not the bottom (being crushed by other people)!

 

I'm a socialist. I don't care if I'm not the one crushed, or even if I get to go on stage: the fact that the crushing happens to anyone is enough for me to protest against it.

 

--Jack

 

Isn't capitalism just great? no depressed people before the fact,just disappointed afterwards

 

anyway,I have been lucky this far to have gotten front row at the gigs I have been to,and I have also been lucky to have been to gigs where concert goers still had respect for one another...or it was my mean look that scared 80% of the kiddies nearby

[Christine]

I got crushed against the barrier so bad during a U2 gig that I was evacuated. I was 13 back then, so yes I know how it feels, I know it's scary when you're in the situation, but I don't think it's objectively speaking really dangerous.

 

I don't know how the NY gig was but security was nowhere to be found in Toronto at the front centre of the stage. Before the show we were able to get someone's attention after 5 minutes of waving and shouting and when security did come over they wouldn't help us.

 

There is no way we could have got security's attention once Mika came on stage. If we had been crushed I'm pretty sure we would have had to fend for ourselves and try to escape over the barrier on our own.

 

As we've discussed before, the concert experiences in Europe and North America are very different. Usually when you've got a hearthrob pop star with a big energetic show like this they are playing in a large seated venue where the audience is heavily spaced apart and security is tight.

 

Having an artist like Mika in a general admission club is an anomaly and people were acting pretty crazy. They started climbing all over each other just to get on camera when they realized what Andy was doing.

 

It added to the atmosphere and I loved every second of it, but if Mika had made physical contact with the audience things would have gone out of control and it would have been very unpleasant for us.

[Niki27]

Yeah, probably heavy metal crowds can get more violent (although as Deb said, there's difference between pushing--ie, being violent in a constrained space--and a stampede). But people do in fact regularly get hurt at the more violent metal concerts: broken ribs are common, so are heavy bruises and even gashes on the head. And sometimes, (not necessarily at metal concerts, but any ones where there is a lot of pushing!) people do die.

 

So I'm not sure how that's not "objectively dangerous."

 

--Jack

 

Well I don't know about America Jack, but here I haven't heard of anyone injured or dead at a concert so far!

*fingers crossed*

[sariflor]

Don't get me wrong, I think that pulling fans on the stage is everything but a good idea! But on the other hand, I'm sure Mika looked at the pros and cons of it and that we shouldn't make it look far worse than it actually is.

 

I really don't think that he thought much about it; He probably had an impulsive idea and went with it, not giving it a lot of thought.

Mika is too smart to have really thought this through and still done it, IMO!

 

Yeah, probably heavy metal crowds can get more violent (although as Deb said, there's difference between pushing--ie, being violent in a constrained space--and a stampede). But people do in fact regularly get hurt at the more violent metal concerts: broken ribs are common, so are heavy bruises and even gashes on the head. And sometimes, (not necessarily at metal concerts, but any ones where there is a lot of pushing!) people do die.

 

So I'm not sure how that's not "objectively dangerous."

 

--Jack

 

Exactly; The fact that it often happens, doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous, of that it should happen.

Things will always have an element that nobody can foresee or control, but the balance is found when the right decisions are made to avoid problems as much as they can be avoided.

Precaution is the key.

 

...or it was my mean look that scared 80% of the kiddies nearby

 

Or the fish smell?

I don't know how the NY gig was but security was nowhere to be found in Toronto at the front centre of the stage. Before the show we were able to get someone's attention after 5 minutes of waving and shouting and when security did come over they wouldn't help us.

 

There is no way we could have got security's attention once Mika came on stage. If we had been crushed I'm pretty sure we would have had to fend for ourselves and try to escape over the barrier on our own.

 

As we've discussed before, the concert experiences in Europe and North America are very different. Usually when you've got a hearthrob pop star with a big energetic show like this they are playing in a large seated venue where the audience is heavily spaced apart and security is tight.

 

Having an artist like Mika in a general admission club is an anomaly and people were acting pretty crazy. They started climbing all over each other just to get on camera when they realized what Andy was doing.

 

It added to the atmosphere and I loved every second of it, but if Mika had made physical contact with the audience things would have gone out of control and it would have been very unpleasant for us.

 

Totally second that. As much as I loved every second of Mika's performance that night (for obvious reasons, the main one being our super sweet spot there), Toronto was scary for 2 reasons:

-as you said, the crowd were mental and would NOT listen to reason (we tried telling people not to push many times, at one point I thought I was going to start punching people, seriously!)

-we didn't have anyone to back us up as security didn't give a flying feck.

So yes, this had the potential to be a disaster as well, I was a bit scared at times thinking about what "may" happen, and that is just not on.

I love Mika but when it comes to this, I think he's been silly and they need to take some action to prevent it from happening again.

As you guys said, now people will EXPECT it and go for it.

[Niki27]

You can have a stupid idea once, and act inconsiderate Sara,

but you don't do it twice then

And since when is Mika spontaneous?

[sariflor]

You can have a stupid idea once, and act inconsiderate Sara,

but you don't do it twice then

And since when is Mika spontaneous?

 

 

What I meant is that, even though the second time it was not spontaneous, he had probably not really thought about it.

I think he sometimes is more spontaneous than he thinks he is. At least when it comes to saying things.

[Christine]

You can have a stupid idea once, and act inconsiderate Sara,

but you don't do it twice then

And since when is Mika spontaneous?

 

I agree that he's had more than enough chance to think it through which is why he needs to be informed of the kind of fear this action is instilling in his fans - both the ones who suffered because of it and the ones who are scared of what might happen to them in the future.

 

Just because Mika's thought it through doesn't mean it's a good idea. He's not the one who has to deal with the consequences (not until someone gets seriously injured because of something he instigated anyway). He's only seeing the happy fans onstage and probably doesn't realize the problems it's causing for people trapped in crowd.

 

I also agree with Marilyn that, as much as I'd love to jump on stage with Mika, I really don't want to see dozens of fans up there in total chaos. It was great to see the Lollipop girls perform their routine because it's part of the show and if he chose a couple of people in costume to go dance near the back that would be great too. But I don't see the point in having a bunch of kids up there for no reason except to give them a 60-second thrill while everyone else in the audience pays the price.

[RAK1]

I agree that he's had more than enough chance to think it through which is why he needs to be informed of the kind of fear this action is instilling in his fans - both the ones who suffered because of it and the ones who are scared of what might happen to them in the future.

 

Just because Mika's thought it through doesn't mean it's a good idea. He's not the one who has to deal with the consequences (not until someone gets seriously injured because of something he instigated anyway). He's only seeing the happy fans onstage and probably doesn't realize the problems it's causing for people trapped in crowd.

 

I also agree with Marilyn that, as much as I'd love to jump on stage with Mika, I really don't want to see dozens of fans up there in total chaos. It was great to see the Lollipop girls perform their routine because it's part of the show and if he chose a couple of people in costume to go dance near the back that would be great too. But I don't see the point in having a bunch of kids up there for no reason except to give them a 60-second thrill while everyone else in the audience pays the price.

I totally agree with you, I don't think he comprehends the effect he is having by doing this.

Until it's pointed out to him the problems it's causing, he may keep doing it.

Maybe, when Andy comes out to film for the next few shows, someone could tell him what's happened. I know the management needs to be informed, but as Andy is the most accessible person in the crew, he could pass on the concerns there and then to them and Mika.

Maybe then the big guy could ease off on encouraging it.

[kaeryana]

Hi there everyone.

There have been concerns raised recently about fans being allowed to crowd onto the stage in one, or more, of Mika's concerts in the US.

A. Clay PMd me with her concerns and we discussed them at length, then decided to contact the club moderators, to ask if Mika's team could be warned that this is a very dangerous thing to allow to happen.

Our concerns were three-fold:

 

One: Mika's safety, as no one can ensure that the only people at the concerts are genuine fans. Some people might want to hurt him.

 

Two: Concern for the other fans. They could get hurt. That would be terrible

 

Three: If any accident was to happen, Mika himself would be blamed. We did not want anything to ruin his monumental efforts to get through to the American people.

 

Sienna has informed me that the situation had, indeed come to the moderators' attentions, and that Mika's team will be made aware of our concerns about safety. It also seems that things have calmed down somewhat, and not as many people went on stage in the more recent shows. Sienna also thought it was a good idea to start a thread to discuss the issue and make fans aware that the fanclub is concerned with the issue and will try to make Mika's team aware of it too.

 

why not have a proper exclusive 'meet-the-fans' session backstage where only fans with backstage passes(at a limited number,or if possible,only for the

mfc members) can attend it?isn't it safer that way?

[JackViolet]

why not have a proper exclusive 'meet-the-fans' session backstage where only fans with backstage passes(at a limited number,or if possible,only for the

mfc members) can attend it?isn't it safer that way?

 

He doesn't want to meet the fans, he just wants them up on stage to give the show a big finish while he slips out.

 

Niki27, deaths are admittedly quite rare at concerts--but they really have happened--but if you're talking about metal moshpits, I can't believe you say you don't know anyone who's been injured. Minor injuries are considered just "part of the fun," and I know my friends who are into that sort of thing proudly show off their bruises and scrapes. And yes, I have heard of broken ribs or noses fairly often.

 

Link.

 

Link.

Link.

 

Now moshing fans get off on that kinda thing, but surely there's no need to bring that to a Mika show...

 

--Jack

[Marilyn Mastin]

He doesn't want to meet the fans, he just wants them up on stage to give the show a big finish while he slips out.

 

Niki27, deaths are admittedly quite rare at concerts--but they really have happened--but if you're talking about metal moshpits, I can't believe you say you don't know anyone who's been injured. Minor injuries are considered just "part of the fun," and I know my friends who are into that sort of thing proudly show off their bruises and scrapes. And yes, I have heard of broken ribs or noses fairly often.

 

Link.

 

Link.

Link.

 

Now moshing fans get off on that kinda thing, but surely there's no need to bring that to a Mika show...

 

--Jack

No there isn't. I agree. What needs to be remembered is that Mika's fans are not just young kids. Mika has fans of all ages and problems with crushing, and pushing, are just going to put the older ones off. Maybe even some of the younger ones.

Speaking for myself, going to the gig on the 28th, I've booked the circle. Hopefully other older people would do that, but if they prefer to get closer to the stage, they should be able to do that without any worries.

[Jrock1]

Having been in the front row at the NYC gig, as well as in DC and Glasgow,

I can tell you that NYC was different. It wasn't just "crowd movement."

It was... scary. I don't think Mika

or anyone realized how dangerous it could become.

 

 

 

I agree with everything Jack says here. It wasn't just pushing in NYC. It was

a stampede. Thousands of people wanted to GET ON THAT STAGE

and suddenly the crowd was crushing me, pinning

me against the barrier so that I couldn't move, could barely breathe --

that was not normal. And let's face it, if someone had been

seriously injured, and there's that video on youtube of Mika encouraging

the stage invading -- well, there's a lawsuit won right there.

I'm all for a little bit of anarchy -- I understand how fun it can be.

But that experience in NYC was NOT fun, except for the

kids who were pulled up onstage.

 

That said, we are going to do what we can to let Mika's management

team know of the concerns that have been expressed here, just in

case they aren't aware that there's any issue at all. I don't expect

tonight's show at SLC to be a problem, as I think it's smallish venue,

but LA and SF are coming up...

 

dcdeb

 

I think what deb says sums it all up. She was there, so she speaks first hand. I think their can be a controlled way of doing this without it getting out of hand, but first I think it needs to stop for a time so that it doesn't just spin off out of control on its own.

 

Speaking from experience with some crowd control, things can get out of hand in a split second and before you know it people are going every which way and their is no order to it and usually almost no way to recover.

 

On a side note, as great as it was for Mika to have said it. I think that video needs to get pulled before this does get someone hurt. I think we as MFC need to protect Mika from this obvious error in judgement. If anyone knows the person who has it posted, please see about getting it removed.

 

John

[A. Clay]

Having been in the front row at the NYC gig, as well as in DC and Glasgow,

I can tell you that NYC was different. It wasn't just "crowd movement."

It was... scary. I don't think Mika

or anyone realized how dangerous it could become.

 

I agree with everything Jack says here. It wasn't just pushing in NYC. It was

a stampede. Thousands of people wanted to GET ON THAT STAGE

and suddenly the crowd was crushing me, pinning

me against the barrier so that I couldn't move, could barely breathe --

that was not normal. And let's face it, if someone had been

seriously injured, and there's that video on youtube of Mika encouraging

the stage invading -- well, there's a lawsuit won right there.

I'm all for a little bit of anarchy -- I understand how fun it can be.

But that experience in NYC was NOT fun, except for the

kids who were pulled up onstage.

 

That said, we are going to do what we can to let Mika's management

team know of the concerns that have been expressed here, just in

case they aren't aware that there's any issue at all. I don't expect

tonight's show at SLC to be a problem, as I think it's smallish venue,

but LA and SF are coming up...

 

dcdeb

 

I think what deb says sums it all up. She was there, so she speaks first hand. I think there can be a controlled way of doing this without it getting out of hand, but first I think it needs to stop for a time so that it doesn't just spin off out of control on its own.

 

Speaking from experience with some crowd control, things can get out of hand in a split second and before you know it people are going every which way and their is no order to it and usually almost no way to recover.

 

On a side note, as great as it was for Mika to have said it. I think that video needs to get pulled before this does get someone hurt. I think we as MFC need to protect Mika from this obvious error in judgement. If anyone knows the person who has it posted, please see about getting it removed.

John

 

THIS IS THE ONLY POST I'M GOING TO MAKE ON THIS SUBJECT:

It is helpful (I hope) to receive first-person accounts from those in the audience +

a first-person post from a fan with experience in crowd control.

Your comments give credibility, I think, to the safety concerns.

 

I seriously feel the NYC occurrence should be viewed as a "cloud with

a silver lining." If you will, to inform that a situation like this can progress from

"OK" to not "OK" in a blink. What's sought, I think, is "reasonable" caution.

 

My motives for voicing the concern--second only to the welfare of all--

was that this sort of event (or worse) not detract from the success of

Mika's current USA tour.

 

The last thing I wanted to do was to "open a can of worms."

Too much discussion of the safety concern could also detract

(in a PR sort of way) from the success of the tour.

 

-DEB, let's get confirmation that the concern, as well as the motives, have

been conveyed to, & acknowledged by, Mika + his Management Team*

-JOHN, I concur with your thoughts & suggestions. Thanks for that input*

 

I suggest we, then essentially, back off/quiet down & allow "Team Mika"

to do their jobs--concerning those things over which they maintain control.

 

I feel confident saying, we love Mika, respect his intelligence & recognize

the intentions for the concerts to be a spontaneous, jolly & memorable event.