The Crowd Control Issue

[babspanky]

Back to the subject in hand (strange for me, I know ) but would't there be little things like Health and Safety regulations and insurance to consider?

[sienna]

Fun for those who get on the stage but not fun for the people struggling to breathe crushed up against each other and the barrier.

 

British people, remember Hillsborough?? Whenever I hear of something like this (and some people's reports from NY were very scary) I think of Hillsborough. It can, and does, happen that people lose their lives when crushed....

 

 

 

I don't worry so much about Mika's safety, just the fans.

But I do worry about Mika's reputation if a fan were to suffocate.

 

So, good idea to bring this to the attention of his management.

 

Yes, this what I mean and that’s why I’m making a fuzz about it!

[sienna]

colloquial: tot de omgangstaal behorende, gemeenzaam, spreektaal. colloquial talents: talent van converseren.

 

MFC'ers do have a great colloquial talent!! (I will defo pass your English exam!! )

 

(Edit: I use a very, very old english-dutch dictionary from 1946! It's a family-heirloom...)

 

Please try this!

 

http://www.freedict.com/onldict/dut.html

[Gatagordinha]

Niki, I agree that stage invasion may be too strong a term (it was me who said it, and I was exaggerating for effect).

 

I also agree - from my limited experience - that Mika crowds are polite in comparison to most. The friend I took to see Mika is a seasoned gig goer (unlike me) and she said the same.

 

However we can only go on what the people who experienced the crushing said, that it was very very frightening and they had to struggle to breathe, and the fact that this scenario was a direct result of Mika encouraging fans onto the stage I just think is not right.

 

And as Bab says, in this day and age there is so much health and safety stuff to consider, not to mention the threat of being sued should something terrible happen, so it still surprises me that Mika did it.

[Niki27]

Niki, I agree that stage invasion may be too strong a term (it was me who said it, and I was exaggerating for effect).

 

I also agree - from my limited experience - that Mika crowds are polite in comparison to most. The friend I took to see Mika is a seasoned gig goer (unlike me) and she said the same.

 

However we can only go on what the people who experienced the crushing said, that it was very very frightening and they had to struggle to breathe, and the fact that this scenario was a direct result of Mika encouraging fans onto the stage I just think is not right.

 

And as Bab says, in this day and age there is so much health and safety stuff to consider, not to mention the threat of being sued should something terrible happen, so it still surprises me that Mika did it.

 

Thing is, sthg like that can happen anytime anyway. I remember being crushed in Brussels after some MFCers misbehaved, I remember being crushed in Donny when Mika jumped down the stage onto the barrier next to me... but you can't call it bad crushing, though, really

 

I don't think that getting people on stage makes it really worse. Crowd movements are just something you have to accept when you go to a gig and you want to be front, to boot.

 

As for the legal matters, I doubt his tour manager would let him do that if there was a risk he might get sued. Maybe the first time was impulsive and the management couldn't do anything about it... but he did it more than once, so... I trust Mika, he's too much of a control freak not to think about the consequences of what he does.

[Diana]

I agree with Niki27.

 

I've been to many, many concerts in my life and at most of them the pushing and crushing would begin before the show, and wouldn't end untill the show does.

So I've experienced it first hand a lot of times and it's really not that dangerous.

 

As for Mika, like I said in the suggestions area.. Mika has tons of professionals around him that know what they're doing..

[sariflor]

Thing is, sthg like that can happen anytime anyway. I remember being crushed in Brussels after some MFCers misbehaved, I remember being crushed in Donny when Mika jumped down the stage onto the barrier next to me... but you can't call it bad crushing, though, really

 

I don't think that getting people on stage makes it really worse. Crowd movements are just something you have to accept when you go to a gig and you want to be front, to boot.

 

As for the legal matters, I doubt his tour manager would let him do that if there was a risk he might get sued. Maybe the first time was impulsive and the management couldn't do anything about it... but he did it more than once, so... I trust Mika, he's too much of a control freak not to think about the consequences of what he does.

 

 

And let me add: on top of me:roftl: HA I just couldn't help that.Sigh.

Back to the topic: that was not bad pushing. Believe me, Toronto or some of the Dusseldorf stuff I experienced was far worse.

Doncaster was really nothing.

But I still disagree with the fact that bad pushing is just the way things are in concerts. That is what security (and people themselves) are there for: tro try and mitigate it a bit.

I know that it's not the norm, but there have been serious consequences to out-of-control concert goers on a few occasions, and I think that this is what Mika and his team need to think of.

I don't personally find it bad that they let people on stage- if anything I find it fun.

The only problem is the way the stages are set up, and the element of it being out of control.

You speak about legal implications- Believe me, there would be (and very serious ones!) if someone was to get hurt this way. It's all a lot of fun until things get out of control, and then it's too late.

I really don't want to be alarmist, but I don't think that it's as "easy" and/or innocent as you are painting it.

 

I agree with Niki27.

 

I've been to many, many concerts in my life and at most of them the pushing and crushing would begin before the show, and wouldn't end untill the show does.

So I've experienced it first hand a lot of times and it's really not that dangerous.

 

As for Mika, like I said in the suggestions area.. Mika has tons of professionals around him that know what they're doing..

 

An out of control crowd is always unpredictable......Nbody can tell what can happen, professional or not.

[Niki27]

I actually should sue you and Mika for having lost 20% of my left hearing-capacity since that moment in donny he jumped "on top of you" :roftl:

[sariflor]

I actually should sue you and Mika for having lost 20% of my left hearing-capacity since that moment in donny he jumped "on top of you" :roftl:

 

 

Sue away baby!! Circumstancial evidence, all of it:punk:

[Blue Sky]

I agree with Niki27.

 

I've been to many, many concerts in my life and at most of them the pushing and crushing would begin before the show, and wouldn't end untill the show does.

So I've experienced it first hand a lot of times and it's really not that dangerous.

 

As for Mika, like I said in the suggestions area.. Mika has tons of professionals around him that know what they're doing..

 

I think the issue at concerts is that when we go down the front we do assume a certain element of risk. We know from experience, or from what other fans have said that the pushing can get bad.

 

The thing is, it is easy to get blase about it, and just accept it is part of going to gigs, but crowds surging really can be very dangerous. Someone mentioned Hillsborough, also here in Japan (land of crowds for EVERYTHING) people were coming home from a fireworks festival, just crossing the bridge to the station, and organisers hadn't calculated so many would go over there, ended up with over 3000 people on the bridge, and 10 people (8 kids) were crushed to death.

 

Stage invading is sure to be fun if you are one of the successful people to get up there, but for those being walked over/crushed, it is really very dangerous. And unless the venue or the security or Mika's management hear about it, they won't necessarily know what the experience of everyone left on the floor was like. At least we could alert them to this. It is irrelevant whether other gigs are worse or not, you cannot judge the level of risk by saying it isn't as bad as some other gig. This is the performer we all care about, we don't want him having a tragedy on his hands, nor even just legal/insurance woes coming out of this kind of fun.

[sariflor]

Well I suspected he might mean that...but then I thought, naah, serious thread, serious Fred.

 

Silly me.

 

Inflatable sink? He could do a whole new pre-Lollipop skit, not with animal costumes but with kitchen-themed inflatables. Microwave, kettle, toaster. George Foreman. etc.

 

I think it's a great idea and you should email Mika about it. Who knows, you may be able to collaborate with him for the next tour? And if it all goes ahead, can I please be the "Toaster Girl"?

 

I think the issue at concerts is that when we go down the front we do assume a certain element of risk. We know from experience, or from what other fans have said that the pushing can get bad.

 

The thing is, it is easy to get blase about it, and just accept it is part of going to gigs, but crowds surging really can be very dangerous. Someone mentioned Hillsborough, also here in Japan (land of crowds for EVERYTHING) people were coming home from a fireworks festival, just crossing the bridge to the station, and organisers hadn't calculated so many would go over there, ended up with over 3000 people on the bridge, and 10 people (8 kids) were crushed to death.

 

Stage invading is sure to be fun if you are one of the successful people to get up there, but for those being walked over/crushed, it is really very dangerous. And unless the venue or the security or Mika's management hear about it, they won't necessarily know what the experience of everyone left on the floor was like. At least we could alert them to this. It is irrelevant whether other gigs are worse or not, you cannot judge the level of risk by saying it isn't as bad as some other gig. This is the performer we all care about, we don't want him having a tragedy on his hands, nor even just legal/insurance woes coming out of this kind of fun.

 

Very well said BS:thumb_yello:

[Ioana]

From a purely egoistical point of view I can say I'd want the stage 'invading' to continue in european gigs too

Now on the other hand,I think mika picks the people he wants to get up on stage and he's pretty good at doing so BUT there's always a risk implied

I don't wanna sound paranoid,but there's a lot of homophobic folk out there,and weather their hate for a person is justified or not isn't really an issue

 

I agree that he could be at risk anytime but if the wrong person got on stage it could get nasty

But even if not,can you imagine the thrill being on stage? You could juts as well bump someone real nasty during the euphoria

 

I'm sure the risks are calculated and I'm sure it's not a threatening safety issue but there is always the possibility of smth going wrong

 

 

As for the pushing,do not get me started,tho I suspect I have had better gigs than you ,not being jumped on or crushed...just scratched by some nutcase granny

[AnnaMariaPetra]

Please try this!

 

http://www.freedict.com/onldict/dut.html

 

Hahaha, thanks:wink2: I use Babelfish a lot, but it always feels nice to use such an old dictionary...

[Christine]

I really disagree with what's been said here so far. Mika is an adult and has a full team working for him. I'm sure they are aware of the risks and have discussed this issue before. Secondly, you can't really talk about a "stage invasion", it's only some 10 people, that he himself picks up from the crowd.

 

I don't know if people here realize that but among all the concerts I've done so far, Mika gigs are by far the most "civilized". The pushing isnt that bad, there is no bad fight, people don't stage dive etc.

 

I agree that generally it's not dangerous because I've endured all kinds of crushing, pushing, shoving and trampling at concerts and have always come out more or less unscathed. But I was also 15 at the time and Mika has a lot of younger and older fans that will not be able to handle it.

 

Just read some of the reports in the NYC thread and you'll see what I mean. Even if no one's life was threatened, if someone feels they are in danger they may go into a blind panic which could create some serious problems in the crowd.

 

You're right about Mika's audiences being quite civilized. There was almost a mosh pit happening at the Fratellis and I'm glad I was nowhere near it. But unlike Mika's Brixton show where I had plenty of room to breathe and the people around me were calm, the Toronto crowd was nuts.

 

Andy was standing on a shelf behind the barrier before the concert and I asked him to tell Mika to do the same thing when he came out and Andy indicated that Mika might be up for it.

 

But by the time Mika did come out the audience was whipped into a frenzy and if Mika had jumped down off the stage I'm certain we would have been crushed, especially since security was nowhere to be found at the front centre of the stage. At one point the crowd was putting so much pressure to bear on us in the front row that the barrier started shifting beneath us.

 

I assumed that Mika could sense that the crowd was slightly out of control and thought better of having any physical contact with anyone and that's why he kept his distance.

 

I don't think Mika's life is threatened by pulling people on stage and chances are no one in the audience is going to be seriously injured either. But if people are frightened to go to his show or walk away feeling extremely traumatized (which has already happened), I don't see that it's worth it from Mika's perspective.

 

If he wants to get people on stage to give them a thrill he can get security to pull individuals out of the audience during Grace Kelly so that they can be led on stage during Lollipop without inciting some sort of free-for-all riot. At the very least he should reserve the "invasions" for seated venues like the Orpheums in Boston and Vancouver because the crowd isn't such a tightly packed mob so there's less chance people will fear for their safety.

[xBillyBrownx]

I do think it COULD be unsafe and dangerous if people get on stage.. I thin that maybe Mika and/or his team should figure out a way to do it more safely, perhaps by selecting people prior to the concerts? I'm not sure.. It could be dangerous but it's still GREAT fun for people who go on there n it's a very special experience..

[JackViolet]

I really disagree with what's been said here so far. Mika is an adult and has a full team working for him. I'm sure they are aware of the risks and have discussed this issue before. Secondly, you can't really talk about a "stage invasion", it's only some 10 people, that he himself picks up from the crowd.

 

I don't know if people here realize that but among all the concerts I've done so far, Mika gigs are by far the most "civilized". The pushing isnt that bad, there is no bad fight, people don't stage dive etc.

 

No, trust me, the pushing really is THAT bad.

 

There is sometimes pushing during the show. In DC, there was a lot of it and it was really annoying, and you couldn't move, etc etc. That was normal bad pushing.

 

In NY, when people rushed the stage, it seriously reached "dangerous" territory. I could see people behind me seriously struggling to not be trampled over and breathe and so on, and some very very scared, and it was NOT okay. In fact, I think Mika's damn lucky no one got seriously hurt then, because they easily could have. I still think it was incredibly stupid of him and his team to encourage stage jumping when the stage was set up the way it was (and thought so as soon as I saw the stage).

 

I agree that, in case his team are not aware of how dangerous a mass rush can be to his fans (when he pulls up a few people himself at the end, that's one thing--when he tells everyone in the first few rows to jump up, that's when it gets bad), we should notify them.

 

Or else we can very likely look forward to injuries and lawsuits in the near future.

 

--Jack

[Marilyn Mastin]

Niki, I agree that stage invasion may be too strong a term (it was me who said it, and I was exaggerating for effect).

 

I also agree - from my limited experience - that Mika crowds are polite in comparison to most. The friend I took to see Mika is a seasoned gig goer (unlike me) and she said the same.

 

However we can only go on what the people who experienced the crushing said, that it was very very frightening and they had to struggle to breathe, and the fact that this scenario was a direct result of Mika encouraging fans onto the stage I just think is not right.

 

And as Bab says, in this day and age there is so much health and safety stuff to consider, not to mention the threat of being sued should something terrible happen, so it still surprises me that Mika did it.

I think, the trouble that occurs is, if Mika invites say, ten people, onto the stage with him that might not seem so bad, but other fans will push forward hoping to be picked as well and that's where the danger comes.

In my view, the stage is for the performers, and the audiance is for fans. Afterwards, when he's signing autographs, I'm sure things are civilised, but in the concerts it's understandable that people get over excited. So, before things do get out of hand, and someone gets hurt, and Mika gets the blame, I think it's just best that Mika and his band and dancers, stay on stage, and the fans stay in the audiance.

[Christine]

I agree that, in case his team are not aware of how dangerous a mass rush can be to his fans (when he pulls up a few people himself at the end, that's one thing--when he tells everyone in the first few rows to jump up, that's when it gets bad), we should notify them.

 

He has already effectively told everyone to rush the stage now so I think it's going to be difficult for him to pull a few people up without inciting the same kind of reaction you got in NY. Word will get around that if you jump up on stage during Lollipop no one will stop you and and people will see the video of Mika encouraging people to do it and then pulling and allowing them up on stage at several shows.

[IngievV]

In Amsterdam, the pushing wasn't that bad in the venue during and before the gig. It was in the queue and when the doors opened really bad. I could hardly breath and got carried away. But I'm not sure about this issue yet.

 

And what happened with that Hills thing then?

[JackViolet]

From a purely egoistical point of view I can say I'd want the stage 'invading' to continue in european gigs too

 

This is how capitalism works... people tend to assume that they'll be the one on top (of the stage), not the bottom (being crushed by other people)!

 

I'm a socialist. I don't care if I'm not the one crushed, or even if I get to go on stage: the fact that the crushing happens to anyone is enough for me to protest against it.

 

--Jack

[IngievV]

Just read the NY thread (well not all) but I must say I don't think it's a great idea that people jump on stage and the venue turns into a moshpit. I think IF he wants people on stage, he should do it the way he did it before like with the lollipop girls or ask people in the queue. That's a lot safer I think.

[RAK1]

I think it is a bit dangerous for Mika to encourage the stage jumping.

We are discussing it here, as we have seen the videos and read about what happened in NY and Toronto.

But there are people who are only just discovering him and are not members here yet, and will not be aware of our concern for both Mika and other fans, and when they go to the concerts and if Mika encourages it they won't be thinking of health and safety and other people in the audience, they'll just want to get on stage.

And this will be the main problem.

Back in the first lot of shows when the crowds were smaller, it wasn't too bad because he picked indivuals from the crowd, but now audiences are bigger, and encouraging more people without firstly pointing them out to security to be taken out of the crowd, is, I think, a bit irresponsible, and surprises me.

I think if he wants more people on stage with him for Lollipop, as has been said before pick in advance.

Andy is always front of stage beforehand so Mika should get him to talk to people at the front and make a judgement call from that. He pretty much knows that the front few rows will be people from here, and I think by now he realises we will behave ourselves (WON'T WE!LOL!) on stage, so it wouldn't be too scarey for him to choose.

Just a suggestion.

[dcdeb]

I don't think that getting people on stage makes it really worse. Crowd movements are just something you have to accept when you go to a gig and you want to be front, to boot.

 

Having been in the front row at the NYC gig, as well as in DC and Glasgow,

I can tell you that NYC was different. It wasn't just "crowd movement."

It was... scary. I don't think Mika

or anyone realized how dangerous it could become.

 

In NY, when people rushed the stage, it seriously reached "dangerous" territory. I could see people behind me seriously struggling to not be trampled over and breathe and so on, and some very very scared, and it was NOT okay. In fact, I think Mika's damn lucky no one got seriously hurt then, because they easily could have. I still think it was incredibly stupid of him and his team to encourage stage jumping when the stage was set up the way it was (and thought so as soon as I saw the stage).

 

I agree that, in case his team are not aware of how dangerous a mass rush can be to his fans (when he pulls up a few people himself at the end, that's one thing--when he tells everyone in the first few rows to jump up, that's when it gets bad), we should notify them.

 

Or else we can very likely look forward to injuries and lawsuits in the near future.

 

I agree with everything Jack says here. It wasn't just pushing in NYC. It was

a stampede. Thousands of people wanted to GET ON THAT STAGE

and suddenly the crowd was crushing me, pinning

me against the barrier so that I couldn't move, could barely breathe --

that was not normal. And let's face it, if someone had been

seriously injured, and there's that video on youtube of Mika encouraging

the stage invading -- well, there's a lawsuit won right there.

I'm all for a little bit of anarchy -- I understand how fun it can be.

But that experience in NYC was NOT fun, except for the

kids who were pulled up onstage.

 

That said, we are going to do what we can to let Mika's management

team know of the concerns that have been expressed here, just in

case they aren't aware that there's any issue at all. I don't expect

tonight's show at SLC to be a problem, as I think it's smallish venue,

but LA and SF are coming up...

 

dcdeb

[Niki27]

I read the report you sent me Jack. I wasn't at that particular gig so I can't really judge but i can't imagine a mika gig turning as bad as a... I don't know... a heavy metal performance or whatever.

 

As for his team "not knowing" about the dangers, I really doubt it. They are professionals, and they've probably seen more gigs than all MFCers together.

 

I got crushed against the barrier so bad during a U2 gig that I was evacuated. I was 13 back then, so yes I know how it feels, I know it's scary when you're in the situation, but I don't think it's objectively speaking really dangerous.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that pulling fans on the stage is everything but a good idea! But on the other hand, I'm sure Mika looked at the pros and cons of it and that we shouldn't make it look far worse than it actually is.

[JackViolet]

Yeah, probably heavy metal crowds can get more violent (although as Deb said, there's difference between pushing--ie, being violent in a constrained space--and a stampede). But people do in fact regularly get hurt at the more violent metal concerts: broken ribs are common, so are heavy bruises and even gashes on the head. And sometimes, (not necessarily at metal concerts, but any ones where there is a lot of pushing!) people do die.

 

So I'm not sure how that's not "objectively dangerous."

 

--Jack