The Gay Thread

[REBEKA]

And love has no gender.

 

That is one of my favourite mottos, together with alike:

- Heart has no sex (sex has no heart?).

- Heart is a very flexible muscle.

- Heart like a bus.. Aaa, this is slightly of topic. (-:

 

Has anyone seen Brokeback Mountain? Sorry if we talked about this already..it's a beautiful eye-opening heart-breaking movie.

 

Yes, I`ve seen it. It`s a good film though not one of my most favourite. And it`s a pity that Ledger, the guy that played the blond one, is dead. He was not one of my favourite actors but he was too young and his death almost ridiculous. We`ve talked about this film earlier in this thread but never mind, we often come back to older topics.

 

And as I`m a voyeur, I liked the cowboy kissing.. I think they won some prise for the kissing scene? Was it the MTV prise or something?

[elanorelle]

This from Yahoo.ca news!

 

(MY OPINION OF MY PRIME MINISTER IS VERY COLOURFUL:sneaky2: )

 

 

 

 

 

Harper slammed for refusing to discipline MP over homophobic slur

 

 

 

2 hours, 1 minute ago

 

By Hed Is 65 Characters Joan Bryden, The Canadian Press--

ADVERTISEMENT

 

OTTAWA - Liberals are accusing Stephen Harper of condoning bigotry after the prime minister refused to discipline a Conservative MP over a vitriolic anti-gay slur.

 

Liberal Scott Brison, one of several gay MPs, said Harper's refusal to strip Tom Lukiwski of his duties as a parliamentary secretary "debases" the institution of Parliament.

 

The prime minister's "tepid response to these hateful remarks against gays and Canadians suffering from AIDS tells Canadians that hate, bigotry and prejudice are just fine in his Canada," Brison told the Commons on Friday.

 

Harper, who was in Bucharest for a NATO summit, did not comment on the affair, which erupted Thursday. But his House leader, Peter Van Loan, said the government is satisfied that Lukiwski has made a "sincere and genuine" apology and does not harbour anti-gay views. He declared the matter closed.

 

Lukiwski was caught on videotape during a boozy party at the Saskatchewan Progressive Conservative party's campaign headquarters during the 1991 provincial election. He pontificated about the difference between himself and "homosexual faggots with dirt in their fingernails that transmit diseases."

 

The Regina MP apologized Thursday and again, even more profusely, to the House on Friday. In particular, he sought the forgiveness of gay friends and colleagues whom he acknowledged must have been aghast at his comments.

 

"To them I say, I'm truly sorry . . . To the entire gay and lesbian community, I also want to extend my deepest and most abject apologies."

 

Lukiwski made no attempt to excuse his remarks or explain the context in which they were uttered. Indeed, he said the gay and lesbian community is justified in being furious with him.

 

"The comments I made . . . should not be tolerated in any society. They should not be tolerated today, they should not have been tolerated in 1991, they should not have been tolerated in years previous to that."

 

Lukiwski insisted he is not homophobic and said the comments don't reflect his personal beliefs either then or now.

 

"Which lends itself to the obvious question . . . if I didn't mean what I said why did I say those things to begin with? The only explanation, Mr. Speaker, that I can give to you and the members of this House is that I was stupid, thoughtless and insensitive."

 

Lukiwski concluded: "I will spend the rest of my career and my life trying to make up for those shameless comments."

 

Saskatchewan New Democrats found the videotape of Lukiwski, Premier Brad Wall and others and released it Thursday. The grainy tape contains sexist, racist and homophobic comments.

 

Van Loan said Lukiwski's comments "are inappropriate and unacceptable, even in the social context where they occurred and even 17 years ago they were unacceptable." However, he said the MP's immediate, abject and unequivocal apology is "a good model of behaviour" and should be sufficient.

 

But that didn't satisfy any of the opposition parties, all three of which called on Harper to turf Lukiwski as Van Loan's parliamentary secretary.

 

Liberal House leader Ralph Goodale said Harper's refusal to discipline Lukiwski turns the affair into a broader question about the prime minister's standards.

 

"Does the prime minister not realize if he does not act on this matter, if he does nothing, then he owns it?"

 

Labrador Liberal MP Todd Russell dredged up examples of other current Conservatives MPs, including two members of cabinet, who've expressed intolerance toward homosexuals in the past. He suggested Harper is refusing to fire Lukiwski because "he knows he'd have to kick out other members of his caucus" for similar offences.

 

Russell charged that intolerance "permeates that (Tory) party's thinking in everything from immigration to gay rights."

 

Goodale expanded on that theme by linking the Lukiwski affair to recent government proposals that would give ministers discretion to pick and choose immigrants and refuse funding for films deemed inappropriate.

 

Van Loan in turn accused the Liberals of waging an inappropriate "smear" campaign "that simply has no basis in reality."

 

Privately, Tories bristled at opposition charges that Harper is condoning bigotry. They pointed out that Harper booted Lukiwski's predecessor, Larry Spencer, from the Conservative caucus after he said homosexuality should be outlawed.

 

They argued that discipline was warranted in that case because, unlike Lukiwski, Spencer was a sitting MP when he made the remarks and refused to withdraw them.

 

But Brison accused the Tories of being "soft on hate." He noted that they believe 14-year-olds should be tried as adults for criminal matters yet they want to exempt Lukiwski, who was 40 at the time his comments were videotaped, from any sanction.

 

New Democrat MP Peter Julian questioned Harper's judgment.

 

"He's allowing currently a spokesperson who has said incredibly degrading and deplorable things about gays and lesbians to continue in his position as a spokesperson for the Canadian federal government and that's just not acceptable."

[dcdeb]

Well, I was waiting for someone to answer you, but it seems this has fallen to the bottom of the thread pile, so, rather than let it go unanswered, I'll go out on a limb and take a stab at it, knowing that someone will correct me or clarify anything that reveals my ignorance.

 

To start off, I was looking at someone's myspace recently. They are male, but likes to cross-dress and style himself as a woman. He is openly gay and also dubs himself with feminine titles such as "queen", "princess", "goddess", etc.

 

I hate to, erm label I suppose, but is this considered transvestism? I'm just a little confused. It seems like a very broad term. I was thinking transvestism applied to: a person who believes they are physically born in the wrong body. They might undergo surgical procedures to alter this. Or, someone who likes to cross-dress, though they may not even believe they are the oppose sex. A while ago I also saw a program of a man who liked to wear women's clothing and makeup and had a fetish with women. He wasn't gay and didn't consider himself a transvestite but said he just liked to dress feminine and also liked the sense of both fear and admiration he bestowed in people.

 

I think you're confusing transvestism with transsexuality or

being transgender. In a very basic

way, without delving into all the nuances here, a transgender person

does feel that they were born the wrong gender and may seek

surgery to "switch" gender. A transvestite dresses and takes on the

traits of someone of the opposite gender. (Perhaps someone can be a

cross-dresser without being considered a transvestite? In other words

they occasionally wear clothing of the opposite sex, but don't do it

to an extreme degree? That I don't know -- I've never heard the

distinction made in this way.)

 

Androgyny refers to not having a pronounced sexual identity -- someone

who is adrogynous is not overtly masculine or feminine but has

traits of both genders... their sexual identity is rather ambiguous.

 

Also, if transvestism is different than homosexuality, why would the person who's myspace I was looking at as I mentioned above, would they consider themself gay? He likes men, but it is difficult for me to tell if he even considers himself a man or a woman. (If it sounds like I'm just being nosy, I'm not trying to dissect this guy[?] I was just curious and wanted to know what other people thought.) I mean, if you yourself consider yourself gay, wouldn't that mean you see yourself of the same gender? Whereas if you thought you were really the opposite gender, you would think of yourself as straight? Or maybe, is transvestism just a fetish to a lot of people?

 

Transvestism is definitely different than homosexuality. You can be gay,

straight or bi and enjoy dressing as the opposite sex. And you can be

a homosexual and not want to dress like the opposite sex at all.

 

I'm not

sure what you mean when you say, "if you consider yourself gay

wouldn't that mean you see yourself of the same gender?" Of which

gender? If you're a gay man you see yourself as a man. If you're a

straight man you see yourself as a man. I don't get what your question

is here.

 

You've gone on to ask a lot of questions in the rest of this

post that I probably shouldn't even

attempt to answer, as I'm not transgender or gay... I just didn't

want your post to languish unanswered for much longer. Maybe if

there's anyone else better able to answer they'll see this now and

will attempt it.

 

dcdeb

[mercurygirl]

Well, I was waiting for someone to answer you, but it seems this has fallen to the bottom of the thread pile, so, rather than let it go unanswered, I'll go out on a limb and take a stab at it, knowing that someone will correct me or clarify anything that reveals my ignorance.

 

 

 

I think you're confusing transvestism with transsexuality or

being transgender. In a very basic

way, without delving into all the nuances here, a transgender person

does feel that they were born the wrong gender and may seek

surgery to "switch" gender. A transvestite dresses and takes on the

traits of someone of the opposite gender. (Perhaps someone can be a

cross-dresser without being considered a transvestite? In other words

they occasionally wear clothing of the opposite sex, but don't do it

to an extreme degree? That I don't know -- I've never heard the

distinction made in this way.)

 

Androgyny refers to not having a pronounced sexual identity -- someone

who is adrogynous is not overtly masculine or feminine but has

traits of both genders... their sexual identity is rather ambiguous.

 

 

 

Transvestism is definitely different than homosexuality. You can be gay,

straight or bi and enjoy dressing as the opposite sex. And you can be

a homosexual and not want to dress like the opposite sex at all.

 

I'm not

sure what you mean when you say, "if you consider yourself gay

wouldn't that mean you see yourself of the same gender?" Of which

gender? If you're a gay man you see yourself as a man. If you're a

straight man you see yourself as a man. I don't get what your question

is here.

 

You've gone on to ask a lot of questions in the rest of this

post that I probably shouldn't even

attempt to answer, as I'm not transgender or gay... I just didn't

want your post to languish unanswered for much longer. Maybe if

there's anyone else better able to answer they'll see this now and

will attempt it.

 

dcdeb

 

I'm sure you did much better than I could ever! I just want to add that I think I understand the question you didn't get:

 

Homosexuals do still see themsleves as the gender they were born i.e a gay man still sees himself as a man, the same with women. They don't necessarily think they are "in the wrong body", they are just attrcted to people of the same gender as them.

 

It's only in extreme cases where homosexuals have surgery to change gender... as dcdeb said they are called "transgender" rather than "homosexual".

 

Does that help at all?

[REBEKA]

Voila, another pregnant man:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/41909/World-Exclusive-The-man-who-gave-birth

 

 

UK NEWS

 

WORLD EXCLUSIVE: THE MAN WHO GAVE BIRTH

 

 

Sunday April 20,2008

By Lucy Johnston, Health Editor THE world’s first pregnant man has broken his silence in an exclusive interview with the Sunday Express.

 

Dylan, 40, and his 10-year-old daughter Joanna opened their home to the Sunday Express to explain how a woman turned into a man, had a baby and became a dad.

 

American transsexual Thomas Beatie has recently gained worldwide attention after posing for a magazine showing his pregnant belly and his bearded face.

 

But he is merely following a trail blazed more than a decade ago by German company executive Dylan.

 

It is an extraordinary story he never sought to publicise, indeed those he did confide in found it difficult to believe.

 

“I was studying for my PhD when I became pregnant,” Dylan said. “When I told my professor I was going to have a baby, he said he didn’t need to know the details of my girlfriend’s condition.

 

“When I told him it was me who was pregnant, it left him speechless.

 

“Being pregnant was weird. I didn’t have a male role model who had done it before.

 

“But now my daughter is a happy 10-year-old. She has two daddies who she loves, one of whom is special and can have babies.” Dylan had wanted to be a boy ever since he was a little girl – the eldest of three sisters. He describes his family as very conservative.

 

Their home in Germany was ruled by the beliefs of his engineer father and teacher mother, who banned television and even newspapers to protect the children from corrupting influences.

 

He says he hated being forced into girls’ clothes, and would have a tantrum if he was made to wear a dress.

 

“I told my friends I was a boy but my parents said I was a girl. When I was 15, I started wearing my father’s clothes.”

 

School was lonely. Dylan said girls avoided him because he was so boyish and the boys ignored him, regarding him as a strange girl.

 

He found his salvation in the German Scouts, where the uniform was the same for boys and girls and neither gender nor sexuality played a big role.

 

“Gender didn’t matter in the Scouts. School was difficult, I felt totally separate from the other children but I had friends in the Scouts.”

 

Though small in stature, and slight in build, by the time he was in his mid 20s, Dylan was living as a man. He had small breasts, which were easily hidden beneath clothes, and mannish body language. He explains: “People always mistook me for a teenage boy, which I quite liked.”

 

Desperate to undergo the medical procedures to become the man he felt he was, he started saving money for hormone treatment and surgery.

 

Yet despite progress in becoming accepted as a man, he felt a growing need to have a family.

 

He explained: “I come from a traditional family and I feel that part of being a real man is being a father, this was very important to me and my self-image as a man.”

 

He and a gay friend, who also wanted to become a father, found a doctor who performed artificial insemination.

 

“The pregnancy was not a problem. I knew it was only going to be for a little while. There were lots of hormones in my system and they actually affirmed my feeling of being a man.

 

“I once saw an overweight young boy in a shop and felt sorry for him because my bulk at least was temporary. I felt very protective of the child that was growing inside me. My breasts grew bigger but my belly was there too and they kind of fitted. I wore baggy clothes and no one realised.

 

“People thought I was putting on weight. They were mostly treating me as a man and no one is going to start wondering whether a man might be pregnant.”

 

Only a few close friends were let in on the secret and one girl friend volunteered to be his birth partner. The birth was a surprise to Dylan. “I did not realise it was going to be so painful,” he said.

 

“I took a long, long shower and my birth partner was there to support me. It was pretty difficult and I almost had to have a caesarean, but by the time they found a doctor, the baby was there.

 

“I didn’t want to stay in the hospital afterwards, it would have been a nightmare with people treating me as a female. The birth was at 4am and I was home just a few hours later.

 

“I’ve never worn a bra, not even during pregnancy. My breasts became pretty big and I didn’t like that. Breast-feeding itself was very nice, it creates a close feeling to the child, I would recommend it – it’s very practical too.”

 

He decided to stop breast-feeding after three months to start testosterone treatment before full sex change surgery. And by the time Joanna was a toddler, Dylan had become her daddy – with hairy legs, a square jaw which he had to shave, no breasts and a deep masculine voice.

 

Joanna also sees her biological father, who lives two hours’ drive away. “Many of her friends don’t have, or rarely see their fathers, yet she has two,” said Dylan.

 

“I told her I am a special daddy who can have children and she accepts that. At her first school there was a project where they had to bring in photos of their family and talk about their relatives. She ‘came out’ to her whole class and no one teased her.”

 

To neighbours Dylan is simply a single dad doing his best by his daughter. Colleagues in the international com-pany where he is a manager do not know he was born a girl.

 

“I believe there are a lot of young transgender people who would like to have children. It is a wonderful thing to have a baby. You are more connected to humanity and society, no matter what your gender is or originally was.”

 

Names have been changed.

[sienna]

If it’s true, and it looks like it, it is really an amazing story!

 

Nothing in this world is to take for granted anymore, now we should consider asking: Was it your mother or your father who gave birth to you?

[REBEKA]

If it’s true, and it looks like it, it is really an amazing story!

 

Nothing in this world is to take for granted anymore, now we should consider asking: Was it your mother or your father who gave birth to you?

 

No! My mother claims they exchanged me in the maternity ward with some Gypsy baby because I`m so wild

[sienna]

No! My mother claims they exchanged me in the maternity ward with some Gypsy baby because I`m so wild

 

Maybe they did!

[REBEKA]

I`m so happy: I already received my ticket for the Amsterdam concert of Mika

I was in Amsterdam before but it was few years ago.. I remember I went to some women-only pub somewhere around Rembrandt square, if I remember well its name was Viva La Vie or something like that. I wonder if that pub still exists? Diana, maybe you know? Maybe you can give tips where homo/bi/trans/asexual women can socialize in Amsterdam?

 

I`d like to share with you people one very cool - for me - website, about a sexual orientation you might have not yet heard of but still it exists and who knows which music star might be that way? Of course I mean Morrisey, you fools

http://www.asexuality.org

[Diana]

I haven't heard of that pub but if you wanna go out in Amsterdam you should go to the Reguliersdwarsstraat, it's the most famous gay area.

 

http://www.reguliers.net/index_en.htm

[REBEKA]

Dank u, Diana.

I will have a look.

[norwalk174]

So have you all been to a gay club before?

[REBEKA]

So have you all been to a gay club before?

 

Sure, loads, and many times. Mostly in Israel and Slovakia, but also in the places where I travel. And you?

 

Last time was a few days ago, in a new women-only pub called L worLd, here in Bratislava, Slovakia. We screened film "Saving Face", a good film, taking place inside the Chinese community in New York, with lesbian motiff of course. It was a pleasant evening and I think this film screenings will be regular there. Though now the girls prefer to go to a park and play football.

 

Next film we want to screen is "Loving Annabelle" - anyone seen it?

[Diana]

So have you all been to a gay club before?

 

Haha yes but it was a bizarre experience cuz I had a Morrocan dude chasing me and at some point he sat next to me and started w*nking.

[xBillyBrownx]

Haha yes but it was a bizarre experience cuz I had a Morrocan dude chasing me and at some point he sat next to me and started w*nking.

 

Haha that's so strange

 

The pregnant man story is really interesting:thumb_yello:

And asexuality as well.. But does that mean that if you're asexual you'll never have s*x?

[norwalk174]

Sure, loads, and many times. Mostly in Israel and Slovakia, but also in the places where I travel. And you?

 

Last time was a few days ago, in a new women-only pub called L worLd, here in Bratislava, Slovakia. We screened film "Saving Face", a good film, taking place inside the Chinese community in New York, with lesbian motiff of course. It was a pleasant evening and I think this film screenings will be regular there. Though now the girls prefer to go to a park and play football.

 

Next film we want to screen is "Loving Annabelle" - anyone seen it?

I'm not old enough quite yet, but I was just wondering if one kind of club was more enjoyable then another

Haha yes but it was a bizarre experience cuz I had a Morrocan dude chasing me and at some point he sat next to me and started w*nking.

That makes me want to go even more!

[REBEKA]

Haha yes but it was a bizarre experience cuz I had a Morrocan dude chasing me and at some point he sat next to me and started w*nking.

 

Some heterosexual men simply ADORE lesbians.

 

So much different from that: "Some heterosexual women simply ADORE gay men".

 

So much to the difference between women and men as such

[REBEKA]

And asexuality as well.. But does that mean that if you're asexual you'll never have s*x?

 

Not in the traditional, "biblical" sense of the word which is intercourse. But you do have close romantic relationships, with kissing and hugging if you like..

[norwalk174]

Some heterosexual men simply ADORE lesbians.

 

So much different from that: "Some heterosexual women simply ADORE gay men".

 

So much to the difference between women and men as such

 

That would be me unfortunately

[REBEKA]

That would be me unfortunately

 

But you surely don`t go to gay bars in order to sexually harrass the gay men, do you?

[norwalk174]

But you surely don`t go to gay bars in order to sexually harrass the gay men, do you?

 

I would if I was old enough

[sunshine18]

Haha that's so strange

 

The pregnant man story is really interesting:thumb_yello:

And asexuality as well.. But does that mean that if you're asexual you'll never have s*x?

 

Not in the traditional, "biblical" sense of the word which is intercourse. But you do have close romantic relationships, with kissing and hugging if you like..

 

I think, in many cases is S*Xual experience the right way to ASEXUAL lifestyle:wink2: ...you can realize that you don´t need S*X as a part of your relationship or marriage...but it have to be clear for both...

[REBEKA]

I would if I was old enough

 

You naughty girl!

 

So much to the fact that the differences between women and men are not so huge

[REBEKA]

I think, in many cases is S*Xual experience the right way to ASEXUAL lifestyle:wink2: ...you can realize that you don´t need S*X as a part of your relationship or marriage...but it have to be clear for both...

 

That`s an interesting point, Sunshine. I guess it is this way with all the minor sexual orientations, be it homosexuality or asexuality, some people know it by themselves, since childhood, and some people come to knowing it by experience, by comparison..

[norwalk174]

You naughty girl!

 

So much to the fact that the differences between women and men are not so huge

 

That reminds me.. the show Queer as Folk showcases gay men and it's mostly straight women that watch it.. why is it that I love gay men so much?!