lollipop_monkey Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 thousands of children die everyday just because - they can't eat, - they can't have access to HIV/malaria/whatever treatements - they run and put their feet on a forgotten bomb while playing soccer with friends IN FRONT OF PEOPLE EYES without nothing (way not enough) is done... not even going that far... get out of your flat, get your eyes off of this f*cking screen, and open them up just in front of your f*cking door... walk a few meters, and then cry for a reason. sorry Heath, R.I.P. but don't expect me to cry upon your death... sad, but. The problem, Yop, is that no one knows their names. The children dying because of a lack of food or medical care are just "the children" - a generic term that encompasses what, thousands of people? Millions, maybe? That's why those charities that seek donations give sponsors a card with a name, photo, story, etc about a specific child. Yes, it's sad that these things happen - but society has evolved to tune out the misfortunes of many. Otherwise we'd all be distraught every day thinking about the kids who can't get medical care, the starving, those caught in wars - we'd all go insane. When a celebrity dies young and unexpectedly, it's a specific name, a specific face - people know "who" he is, in a basic sense of his career, etc. Then they start thinking - could that happen to me? My uncle, or maybe my co-worker? Then, on here, people think - OMG - could that happen to Mika? Perhaps I'm a cold person, but I'd be distraught if that happened to Mika, despite having never been within 500km of the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 would be a bit sadder than for Heath, yes... but still... he's not my friend and doubt he would give a tiny f*ck if i ever came to die (what i will )... but i'm aware of that, and not angry ! that's normal.i just want to spend my time helping and "crying" for those who really need some help and positive thoughts and acts... It's not that Mika would need our sympathy in death. Most of his fans would be suffering a real loss. No more concerts, no more albums, etc. It would be very hard for a lot of people to take. I can't even imagine what would happen on MFC if something happened to Mika. It would be pandemonium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babspanky Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 i didn't say that... i'm way not intelligent enough... but that's true... maybe that's why i'm not that upset Somebody said it. Or am I making things up again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackViolet Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I don't know, I'm on another site unrelated to fandom of anybody and they're all going mental over it too. I feel extremely sad as well, and I am not the type to care about celebrities (well, most celebrities). I think it's that he was a genuinely talented, serious smart young actor, who did not surround himself with scandal and thus was not one of the trainwrecks you could see this coming from. He was, as someone said on that other site, "normal"--he led a pretty low-profile life, had a baby daughter that he took to swimming classes, lived in NY where people would run into him shopping... it's sad and scary to think that someone who you think is stable and doing well (even if he did recently split with the mother of his child), young and full of energy would be so troubled. I recently saw him in the newest film by my favorite director, "I'm Not There," and he was wonderful in it. He really took his job and his roles seriously, too. And of course other tragedies happen every day... but just because so many other people die, it is no less sad that he has, or no less deserving of grief. --Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 The problem, Yop, is that no one knows their names. The children dying because of a lack of food or medical care are just "the children" - a generic term that encompasses what, thousands of people? Millions, maybe? That's why those charities that seek donations give sponsors a card with a name, photo, story, etc about a specific child. Yes, it's sad that these things happen - but society has evolved to tune out the misfortunes of many. Otherwise we'd all be distraught every day thinking about the kids who can't get medical care, the starving, those caught in wars - we'd all go insane. When a celebrity dies young and unexpectedly, it's a specific name, a specific face - people know "who" he is, in a basic sense of his career, etc. Then they start thinking - could that happen to me? My uncle, or maybe my co-worker? Then, on here, people think - OMG - could that happen to Mika? Perhaps I'm a cold person, but I'd be distraught if that happened to Mika, despite having never been within 500km of the guy. in my opinion, which is not the general opinion, and i'm aware of that, the reason you gave (the children have no specific names, they are "just" the children) is what people HIDE behind to cope with that... still in my opinion, which is still not the general one, it's being selfish... it's not because you can't put a name on people that you need to "ignore" their death and suffering... and if you (not you, you in general) need a celeb to die to remember that it could happen to someone you know in life, then you (still general) have a problem that you can't put on just "the children have no names, and Heath Ledger i know who he is"... still my controversial opinion... actually, i'm quite an idealist and a utopist behind my sarcastic comments... It's not that Mika would need our sympathy in death. Most of his fans would be suffering a real loss. No more concerts, no more albums, etc. It would be very hard for a lot of people to take. I can't even imagine what would happen on MFC if something happened to Mika. It would be pandemonium. well, we would just get back to our lives, whatever it was before, after a little time of sweet souvenirs... once again, i think (my opinion) that we're all here because we want to escape from real life, that we even managed to diminish to RL "not to say it loud"... so we woul go back to hard RL, or find another escape until we're ready to face it... i mean : we never needed MFC to make new friends ! but here, it's easier... we have the advantages of friends : sympathy, good mood, etc. without the inconvenients : we an come when WE want to, not because one or one calls us and needs us, we're behind a screen, comfy, home, in pyjamas, etc. no need to go out and facethe rain, the cold, whatever to "see" those friends and have a good time, etc. of course, it's taken to edges, but it's not that wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I don't know, I'm on another site unrelated to fandom of anybody and they're all going mental over it too. I feel extremely sad as well, and I am not the type to care about celebrities (well, most celebrities). I think it's that he was a genuinely talented, serious smart young actor, who did not surround himself with scandal and thus was not one of the trainwrecks you could see this coming from. He was, as someone said on that other site, "normal"--he led a pretty low-profile life, had a baby daughter that he took to swimming classes, lived in NY where people would run into him shopping... it's sad and scary to think that someone who you think is stable and doing well (even if he did recently split with the mother of his child), young and full of energy would be so troubled. I recently saw him in the newest film by my favorite director, "I'm Not There," and he was wonderful in it. He really took his job and his roles seriously, too. And of course other tragedies happen every day... but just because so many other people die, it is no less sad that he has, or no less deserving of grief. --Jack oh no no !!! i didn't say that !! i was just expressing MY thoughts about this death... but as usual, we're all free to think what we want to and feel what we can ! i wasn't taing "in general" with my 1st post about Heath Ledger, i finished with something saying it was only my opinion, and that I wouldn't feel the same as they're feeling... but never said it was right or wrong, or at least, never intended to ! it's been a while now that i haven't given a sh*t about what people think and haven't tried to get them back to "reason" otherwise, someone would create a group therapy thread because i tried to get her/him out of his/her dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violet_sky Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 ok... once again, i'll be the grief-party breaker ( ) but people die everyday, and nobody care... i find it hard to "have tears in my eyes" or "be gutted" or whatever for someone i've never met, and with "great actor talent" i'm not aware of... while thousands of children die everyday just because - they can't eat, - they can't have access to HIV/malaria/whatever treatements - they run and put their feet on a forgotten bomb while playing soccer with friends IN FRONT OF PEOPLE EYES without nothing (way not enough) is done... not even going that far... get out of your flat, get your eyes off of this f*cking screen, and open them up just in front of your f*cking door... walk a few meters, and then cry for a reason. sorry Heath, R.I.P. but don't expect me to cry upon your death... sad, but. well, of course, this is not the place to talk about this... Um... I have seen you edited this one but still, I had a thought about it I'd like to throw in... You're very right, of course and those circumstances you were talking about are undeniably sad and very worrying, but reading that reminded me of that one sentence mothers tend to have for their kids when they refuse to eat or leave a big deal of their dish for the litter: "... Eat your spinach, in Africa the little children are starving to death!" Sad enough they die regardless of Europan toddlers eating their vegetables or not. So I'd say while death remains death and unites us all in one way or another, those are different worlds - well, apart from the 'Madonna meets Malawian orphanage" episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babspanky Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 If I didn't hide behind something, I would have a breakdown or something, honestly. I have almost been down that road and I felt so helpless. Disasters, death, war, innocent people and animals suffering and nothing I can do to change it. Worrying into the night about the injustice of it all and knowing that anything I do will just be a drop in the ocean. Some people can cope with this knowledge, I don't think I can. I admire people who can see all this and go on to really make a difference in some way. I am just a coward. *goes off to hide again. (behind Mika's skirts?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babspanky Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 oh no no !!! i didn't say that !! i was just expressing MY thoughts about this death... but as usual, we're all free to think what we want to and feel what we can ! i wasn't taing "in general" with my 1st post about Heath Ledger, i finished with something saying it was only my opinion, and that I wouldn't feel the same as they're feeling... but never said it was right or wrong, or at least, never intended to ! it's been a while now that i haven't given a sh*t about what people think and haven't tried to get them back to "reason" otherwise, someone would create a group therapy thread because i tried to get her/him out of his/her dreams We gotta have dreams, Yop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Um... I have seen you edited this one but still, I had a thought about it I'd like to throw in... You're very right, of course and those circumstances you were talking about are undeniably sad and very worrying, but reading that reminded me of that one sentence mothers tend to have for their kids when they refuse to eat or leave a big deal of their dish for the litter: "... Eat your spinach, in Africa the little children are starving to death!" Sad enough they die regardless of Europan toddlers eating their vegetables or not. So I'd say while death remains death and unites us all in one way or another, those are different worlds - well, apart from the 'Madonna meets Malawian orphanage" episodes. this is partly why they're still dying, because the whole world thinks "those are different worlds", "we can't do anything for them", etc. i'm not saying i'm gonna save africa or anything in this style, i was just comparing the emotion raised by HL's death with the lack of emotion raised by all these people dying, just because it's been too long, and now it's kinda proven that we can't do anything... everybody is sort of giving up one after the other, etc. me and my big thoughts... certainly not the fun bab was dreaming about sorry dear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 We gotta have dreams, Yop! each to their own mine is to help a tiny bit those people... as much as i can... maybe just to convince myself i'm not so useless in the world how selfish of me, if you look at it closer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollipop_monkey Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 in my opinion, which is not the general opinion, and i'm aware of that, the reason you gave (the children have no specific names, they are "just" the children) is what people HIDE behind to cope with that... still in my opinion, which is still not the general one, it's being selfish... it's not because you can't put a name on people that you need to "ignore" their death and suffering... I assume that there are, for example, starving children on the streets of Paris. But in all honesty, what can I personally do about it? I'm sure there are women being beaten in London, people in the States who can't afford basic medical care, and all sorts of awful things going on in Lebanon and Iraq. But as I sit here in my office in Canada, at five o'clock on a Tuesday, what can I really do about any of those? Not a damn thing. So I am indeed going to ignore the pain and suffering of people who have no names and no faces to me, because to do otherwise would send me into a mental institution. You could call it selfishness, but it's selfishness as a means of self-preservation. With the Internet, there are no boundaries. One can access news from all over the world. One can go onto YouTube and search for news videos showing all sorts of terrible things. But realistically, there's not a single thing that I can personally do to change any of that. So I'm quite content to ignore it, rather than obsess about my ineffectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I assume that there are, for example, starving children on the streets of Paris. But in all honesty, what can I personally do about it? I'm sure there are women being beaten in London, people in the States who can't afford basic medical care, and all sorts of awful things going on in Lebanon and Iraq. But as I sit here in my office in Canada, at five o'clock on a Tuesday, what can I really do about any of those? Not a damn thing. So I am indeed going to ignore the pain and suffering of people who have no names and no faces to me, because to do otherwise would send me into a mental institution. You could call it selfishness, but it's selfishness as a means of self-preservation. With the Internet, there are no boundaries. One can access news from all over the world. One can go onto YouTube and search for news videos showing all sorts of terrible things. But realistically, there's not a single thing that I can personally do to change any of that. So I'm quite content to ignore it, rather than obsess about my ineffectiveness. and i'm certainly not gonna condamn you for that i do understand... i just can't do the same... could be just a question of point of view ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollipop_monkey Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 and i'm certainly not gonna condamn you for that i do understand... i just can't do the same... could be just a question of point of view ! I'm honestly interested (no sarcasm at all) - how do your views differ? What are you personally doing to help offset all the painful, tragic and otherwise unsavoury things going on in this world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violet_sky Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 this is partly why they're still dying, because the whole world thinks "those are different worlds", "we can't do anything for them", etc.i'm not saying i'm gonna save africa or anything in this style, i was just comparing the emotion raised by HL's death with the lack of emotion raised by all these people dying, just because it's been too long, and now it's kinda proven that we can't do anything... everybody is sort of giving up one after the other, etc. Quite possible that this is the huge problem... can you (the in-general-you) be idealist enough all the way to not become sort of disenchanted by the fact that however much an indiviual can do, it will never be any more than a drop in the ocean? People do see all the misery that's going on but then it is overwhelming, you donate to feed one child, so what about the other one dying next to this? What about the children with HIV or those who lost their mums to AIDS, what about all the victims of war, injustice, crime? Who deserves help and who not? By feeding one we kinda answer for the death of the others we can't feed, too. In fact, helping can make you feel the powerlessness you actually have more than ever. And I guess that is what makes people back off and look away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I'm honestly interested (no sarcasm at all) - how do your views differ? What are you personally doing to help offset all the painful, tragic and otherwise unsavoury things going on in this world? nothing, i'm just aware of it, and have the idea to do whatever i can to add my 50 cents to international help... being a med student, it would be on a medical bond... i just don't think that "ignoring it" will make me feel better, so i don't i only do what i think will make me feel better... could be seen as a selfish thing too ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Quite possible that this is the huge problem... can you (the in-general-you) be idealist enough all the way to not become sort of disenchanted by the fact that however much an indiviual can do, it will never be any more than a drop in the ocean? People do see all the misery that's going on but then it is overwhelming, you donate to feed one child, so what about the other one dying next to this? What about the children with HIV or those who lost their mums to AIDS, what about all the victims of war, injustice, crime? Who deserves help and who not? By feeding one we kinda answer for the death of the others we can't feed, too. In fact, helping can make you feel the powerlessness you actually have more than ever. And I guess that is what makes people back off and look away. but i think being aware of the situation, you can't help everyone, and have to know it to stand it. but doing nothing instead of helping this or this cause whereas the other is "left alone" can't be right for me. i mean nobody's gonna save nobody taken one by one ! but all together, maybe there is a chance to make things better... MAYBE ! and that maybe helps me going on in that spirit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babspanky Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I assume that there are, for example, starving children on the streets of Paris. But in all honesty, what can I personally do about it? I'm sure there are women being beaten in London, people in the States who can't afford basic medical care, and all sorts of awful things going on in Lebanon and Iraq. But as I sit here in my office in Canada, at five o'clock on a Tuesday, what can I really do about any of those? Not a damn thing. So I am indeed going to ignore the pain and suffering of people who have no names and no faces to me, because to do otherwise would send me into a mental institution. You could call it selfishness, but it's selfishness as a means of self-preservation. With the Internet, there are no boundaries. One can access news from all over the world. One can go onto YouTube and search for news videos showing all sorts of terrible things. But realistically, there's not a single thing that I can personally do to change any of that. So I'm quite content to ignore it, rather than obsess about my ineffectiveness. You are so sensible. I wish I had come to that conclusion at your age instead of beating myself up about it for years. And I can still slip back into that mode if I'm not careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoppappop Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 You are so sensible. I wish I had come to that conclusion at your age instead of beating myself up about it for years. And I can still slip back into that mode if I'm not careful. OH NO !!!! i'm an up-coming bab !!! :shocked: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babspanky Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 OH NO !!!! i'm an up-coming bab !!! :shocked: Yeah, get a grip now, or you'll end up like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violet_sky Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 but i think being aware of the situation, you can't help everyone, and have to know it to stand it. but doing nothing instead of helping this or this cause whereas the other is "left alone" can't be right for me. i mean nobody's gonna save nobody taken one by one ! but all together, maybe there is a chance to make things better... MAYBE ! and that maybe helps me going on in that spirit... I guess I'll take this as Thought for the Day (or night, more so) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Whoa...so deep in here tonight... My little, tiny, eensy, weensy goals this week are: to make sure my kids learn to take care of their things and stop losing their mitts and hats at school.... and stop teasing and annoying eachother and learn to love eachother like brother and sister. Then maybe I can take on the world. You gotta start small - with the people you love around you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 actually, i'm quite an idealist and a utopist behind my sarcastic comments... I can see it and I know what you mean by that. I am far too pessimistic to think my efforts will make enough difference to make it worth a lot of personal sacrifice on my part. Also I've encountered a lot of selfish f*ckers in my time and I've come to realize that, aside from my parents, the only person who is interested in my best interests is me. I can't expend all my energy on the welfare of other people and survive. It would be nice if we were still living in a world of mutual support, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Socialist governments appear to be taking the place of familial and neighbourly care and help and people are becoming too far removed from one another as individuals. well, we would just get back to our lives, whatever it was before, after a little time of sweet souvenirs... Oh sure we'd get over it. I would not build a shrine to Mika and shroud myself in black veils for the next 20 years. But if Mika had been found dead 4 hours ago I certainly would not be over it already, so I can empathize with the current upset over Heath Ledger even if I'm not really grieving too much myself. I admire people who can see all this and go on to really make a difference in some way. I am just a coward.*goes off to hide again. (behind Mika's skirts?) I admire those people too. I don't know if it's just cowardice or the pessimism. I think it's partly misanthropy because I'm more likely to assist animals where I can even though their plight is equally hopeless in many instances. I assume that there are, for example, starving children on the streets of Paris. But in all honesty, what can I personally do about it? I'm sure there are women being beaten in London, people in the States who can't afford basic medical care, and all sorts of awful things going on in Lebanon and Iraq. But as I sit here in my office in Canada, at five o'clock on a Tuesday, what can I really do about any of those? Not a damn thing. But somewhere along the line you chose to sit in an office instead of leading the kind of life that would allow you to help starving children on the streets of Paris or mitigate war in Lebanon. I'm not judging you for that. I've made the same choices. But you're not being honest with yourself if you think you can't do anything at all about it. You've weighed the cost/benefit and come to the conclusion that you can't do enough to make it worth the sacrifice of your own comfortable life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollipop_monkey Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 But somewhere along the line you chose to sit in an office instead of leading the kind of life that would allow you to help starving children on the streets of Paris or mitigate war in Lebanon. I'm not judging you for that. I've made the same choices. But you're not being honest with yourself if you think you can't do anything at all about it. You've weighed the cost/benefit and come to the conclusion that you can't do enough to make it worth the sacrifice of your own comfortable life. I'm not seeing how I'm not being honest with myself. Okay, I spend my days helping oil companies woo existing shareholders and entice new ones - that doesn't help Parisian kids, obviously. It's not about performing a cost/benefit analysis on the tribulations of Parisian kids versus my own desire to sit in a warm home with a decently-stocked fridge. But even if I did make the choice to try and help one cause, there's hundreds, maybe thousands more. If I were doing my part to help feed poor kids in France, I'd be doing nothing to encourage peace in Lebanon, or to help the abuse victims in London. I could dedicate my whole life and my whole self to those starving Parisian kids, but there would still be nothing I could do for those Lebanese war victims. And so, I go about my merry life refusing to dwell on all the things I'm not doing, because that is, indeed, a very long list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackViolet Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I'm kind of put off by how so many of the post on the RIP thread are all "so horrible, can you imagine what it would be like if that happened to Mika? Mika don't suicide or take drugs!!!" and all that. I understand the thought process, but Mika really has nothing to do with it and is currently in no danger of either option. (I mean, Heath's situation is also unexpected and shocking, but really, Mika is at this point as far from such concerns as can be.) In a way I feel it cheapens Heath's life and death that it must be mourned in context of Mika. He deserves to be mourned entirely for his own sake. --Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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