XL REPUBBLICA - how Mika keeps himself busy ;-)

[atreyu]

I am actually really happy to see new members get involved in this conversation, too. Even though we all have different views on this topic, I consider this discussion healthy. Talking about things doesn't hurt anyone, so you needn't apologise for anything.

 

thanks! actually I was bit scared to say anything

 

I think Mika is peace and love. However, it does not mean that he has no opinion of his own. I am really pleased that sometimes he voices his opinion but never in an aggressive way and / or for PR purposes like most pop stars do.

I know and I do like the way he expressed himself without being rude or polemic and quite artistic as always I just had a different image

 

I can easily argue with the opposite example: in countries where abortion is illegal, women with unwanted pregnancies often risk their lives to have the child aborted illegally.

 

They are not babies but are living creatures for sure. Your example was absolutely correct - any living organism automatically moves away from noise, probably even an amoeba. What we are discussing here is, however, if the mother is prepared to provide this living creature all the circumstances that would allow it to have a life that is worth living, ie.satisfy the baby’s physical as well as emotional needs and provide them a life prospect that is more than just a vegetative state.

 

And here let me add that I don’t think previous comments pro-choice meant that life was not worth a living with disabilities. Those disabilities mentioned earlier cannot even be detected during pregnancy:aah: , not to mention autism that is often not considered as a disorder but merely a difference.

 

Anyway, let’s not compare blind people or people with some physical or mental disability to a fetus whose life expectancy, if born, would be extremely limited. If such baby is born, of course parents and society should do all they can to make their life as enjoyable as it can be. However, if at an early stage of pregnancy some serious chromosomal disease is detected, no woman should be forced to have this fundamental change to her life that would come with looking after such child 24 hours a day for the short time period this child would live. If the mother and people around her are not mentally prepared for it, she should have a choice not to give birth to that baby.

 

well what I meant that I do believe it's baby was that I see fetos as a living creature with as much rights as anyother has to live

and I was just saying... people only think in the poor mom and dad, but what a bout the person-to-be ... I'm pretty sure that eventhought that person will have problems, pain and difficulties if given the choice the person would chose to live... well I don't know this is a very delicate topic for me, I have friends that had gone throw really bad emotional moments to the point of wanting to kill themselves, and I know this isn't the same thing but my point is that with this experience I know that sometimes people choose to fight their problems instead of going "with the easy way out" = death.

 

So just saying that maybe MAYBE this baby if given the choice would rather fight and give a chance to life instead.

 

Probably is not the same as beeing born with desabilities but just saying that the onlyones involved here aren't the parents

 

and yeah I know people in countries where abortion is illegal they still do it and go throw mayor complications, me country is one of them, but still there's always a group how refrain themselves from doing so cause it's illegal.

 

 

Laura, you say that there are tons of people waiting to adopt,etc... Yes, that is the case, but sadly, most people want to adopt perfect kids (preferably babies) and there are plenty of children from worse backgrounds or disabilities who are never adopted. It's really not as simple as you paint it.

yeah most people whant to adopt perfect babys but I know people who have adopted kids with problems so it's not a rule.

 

 

 

anyhow live is not black and white there's not a one and only truth.

but I believe every living creature has the right to live, be it a dog, plant, a bug, or a fetos. Life is a really delicate thing and we shouldn't mess up with it.

...that sounded so cheese, oh well!

peace Y'all

[Soaring Simpson]

I wouldn't say everyone one is, there are some out there who probably completely disagree with what he says, to some, if not all the statements he makes there.

And I think it's interesting to see what he thinks about different topics, like this one, since he's not been very forthcoming about a lot of stuff.

 

I found it very interesting too- but only because it's MIka. If it was Micheal Buble, say, or whover's number one in the charts at the moment, I'd only prick up my ears if they were saying they didn't hold one of those opinions.

 

I really want this column to succeed, but I think he'll have to do more than express standard politically correct opinionsto hang on to it. Maybe he should enthuse about art he has seen, like he used to. His ideas on that are original and passionate and perhaps fit better with the mag's readers.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Soaring Simpson

[toy_girl_mika96]

Okay, I was a little scared to say something too, but I'm gonna give my opinion.

 

I am pro-life because I believe once the baby is conceived, it is a living creature and has a full life ahead of it.

 

I respect other people's opinions, but that's my honest opinion, I don't think any fetus should be aborted, I don't see the difference in abortion and murder, you're still taking away a life that the baby could have had, that's my opinion though ..

 

even though the baby is disabled, it could have a good life, with a lot of potential, think of Helen Keller, Beethoven, etc. also, I have an autistic cousin who is a completely happy child

 

I know not all of kids with Down Syndrome, Autism, Cerebral Palsy.. etc. can live a fun-filled life, but there's always hope to give them as normal of a life as possible.

[Marilyn Mastin]

Mika is also pro contraception, and if birth control is used, the issue of abortion would rarely come up. There are countries where people are starving and yet the Catholic Pope still advocates NOT using condoms. This causes children to be born when they really shouldn't be, because there is no food for them. It also encourages the spread of AIDS, which children also get from their mothers while they are in the womb.

I will admit, I could never abort a child of mine. But I'm too ill to have another child, so after Steve was born Alan and I took steps to make sure that wouldn't happen. Alan had a vascectomy, and if we'd have been going to the Catholic Church we would have been in big trouble for doing that. But it was better than myself, as a disabled woman, having a child I couldn't care for, or having it adopted, or aborted.

So it's not always about having an abortion, or not having an abortion. There is a bigger picture which includes prevention, and I think that is how Mika would look at it as well.

[sariflor]

Mika is also pro contraception, and if birth control is used, the issue of abortion would rarely come up. There are countries where people are starving and yet the Catholic Pope still advocates NOT using condoms. This causes children to be born when they really shouldn't be, because there is no food for them. It also encourages the spread of AIDS, which children also get from their mothers while they are in the womb.

I will admit, I could never abort a child of mine. But I'm too ill to have another child, so after Steve was born Alan and I took steps to make sure that wouldn't happen. Alan had a vascectomy, and if we'd have been going to the Catholic Church we would have been in big trouble for doing that. But it was better than myself, as a disabled woman, having a child I couldn't care for, or having it adopted, or aborted.

So it's not always about having an abortion, or not having an abortion. There is a bigger picture which includes prevention, and I think that is how Mika would look at it as well.

 

I totally agree, but I thought that this went without saying.

[atreyu]

Okay, I was a little scared to say something too, but I'm gonna give my opinion.

 

I am pro-life because I believe once the baby is conceived, it is a living creature and has a full life ahead of it.

 

I respect other people's opinions, but that's my honest opinion, I don't think any fetus should be aborted, I don't see the difference in abortion and murder, you're still taking away a life that the baby could have had, that's my opinion though ..

 

even though the baby is disabled, it could have a good life, with a lot of potential, think of Helen Keller, Beethoven, etc. also, I have an autistic cousin who is a completely happy child

 

I know not all of kids with Down Syndrome, Autism, Cerebral Palsy.. etc. can live a fun-filled life, but there's always hope to give them as normal of a life as possible.

 

hahah we are a couple of scaredy cats

you go girl !

 

Mika is also pro contraception, and if birth control is used, the issue of abortion would rarely come up. There are countries where people are starving and yet the Catholic Pope still advocates NOT using condoms. This causes children to be born when they really shouldn't be, because there is no food for them. It also encourages the spread of AIDS, which children also get from their mothers while they are in the womb.

I will admit, I could never abort a child of mine. But I'm too ill to have another child, so after Steve was born Alan and I took steps to make sure that wouldn't happen. Alan had a vascectomy, and if we'd have been going to the Catholic Church we would have been in big trouble for doing that. But it was better than myself, as a disabled woman, having a child I couldn't care for, or having it adopted, or aborted.

So it's not always about having an abortion, or not having an abortion. There is a bigger picture which includes prevention, and I think that is how Mika would look at it as well.

 

I'm also pro contraception

I mean I somehow felt related with what Mika said about "taking what we like from religion" As I have said I don't believe there's an absolute and only truth and we can think for ourselves, what is better to do. Of course is better to not conceive at all than to abort. I don't argue with that

I'm with you all the way

 

but just a toy-girl -mika96 said abortion can be seen as murder ...

[atreyu]

be pro life or pro choice

I recomendo everyone to watch this:

http://www.bloodmoneyfilm.com/trailer.php

the trailler of a documentary about abortion

I haven't seen it but I'm pretty sure it'll be as or even more shocking than the documentary Al Gore did

[Marilyn Mastin]

I totally agree, but I thought that this went without saying.

Yes, but I thought I'd share about how me and my husband tackled the issue of family planning, bearing in mind that we could only have one child.

[laura*]

be pro life or pro choice

I recomendo everyone to watch this:

http://www.bloodmoneyfilm.com/trailer.php

the trailler of a documentary about abortion

I haven't seen it but I'm pretty sure it'll be as or even more shocking than the documentary Al Gore did

 

Thanks, it's interesting, although I don't think I should watch the whole film.

Anyway, that's what I meant when I said that there is propaganda to support both views. Quite a lot remains hidden.

[CazGirl]

Mika is also pro contraception, and if birth control is used, the issue of abortion would rarely come up. There are countries where people are starving and yet the Catholic Pope still advocates NOT using condoms. This causes children to be born when they really shouldn't be, because there is no food for them. It also encourages the spread of AIDS, which children also get from their mothers while they are in the womb.

I will admit, I could never abort a child of mine. But I'm too ill to have another child, so after Steve was born Alan and I took steps to make sure that wouldn't happen. Alan had a vascectomy, and if we'd have been going to the Catholic Church we would have been in big trouble for doing that. But it was better than myself, as a disabled woman, having a child I couldn't care for, or having it adopted, or aborted.

So it's not always about having an abortion, or not having an abortion. There is a bigger picture which includes prevention, and I think that is how Mika would look at it as well.

 

I completely agree with everything you said here. If you can't look after a child, then don't have any. Prevent yourself from becoming pregnant. However, if the condom split and you didn't know about it - what would you do then? Is it right to bring up a child where it couldn't be looked after properly? As you said Marilyn, some people are physically unable but some may not be able to support the child financially, i.e. buy them their basic needs. Perhaps, even, the woman could be an alcoholic and/or a drug abuser. What good would that do to an unborn child whilst in the womb, let alone outside? Babies have no choice or say in anything. Babies in that position are either aborted and therefore know nothing of life nor know of their own existence, or they risk being born into an underprivileged, poverty striken life where their mother is someone who is unable to care for them, let alone care for themselves. So tell me which is fair in that scenario?

 

I know I'm probably going to get the response "they can have their baby adopted by someone who CAN look after it" but there are some people who DON'T give up their babies for adoption. Fact. PLUS, if their mother did indeed use substances whilst pregnant, this can make the child an addict too and once they're born they end up having withdrawal symptoms if they don't get what they had when they were in the womb. Fact.

 

If you can't look after a child, don't get pregnant. It's as simple as that in my eyes

 

I understand where people are coming from if they are against abortion. The process isn't very pleasant nor is it very dignified, and don't get me wrong, I understand the murder reference too, but abortions aren't necessarily about mothers being selfish and stupid (not saying anyone has said that but I'm sure that there are several people out there who have had abortions just because they were careless) but it's also about putting the baby's best interests at heart. Would I ever have an abortion? I don't know unless I'm in the position. I wouldn't like to have an abortion, there are such extreme emotions involved, but there are times when I think it can be necessary.

 

Just my opinion.

[toy_girl_mika96]

hahah we are a couple of scaredy cats

you go girl !

 

 

 

I'm also pro contraception

I mean I somehow felt related with what Mika said about "taking what we like from religion" As I have said I don't believe there's an absolute and only truth and we can think for ourselves, what is better to do. Of course is better to not conceive at all than to abort. I don't argue with that

I'm with you all the way

 

but just a toy-girl -mika96 said abortion can be seen as murder ...

 

that's what I say

 

I hope I didn't offend anyone in my post, if I did, I am sorry.

[sariflor]

I completely agree with everything you said here. If you can't look after a child, then don't have any. Prevent yourself from becoming pregnant. However, if the condom split and you didn't know about it - what would you do then? Is it right to bring up a child where it couldn't be looked after properly? As you said Marilyn, some people are physically unable but some may not be able to support the child financially, i.e. buy them their basic needs. Perhaps, even, the woman could be an alcoholic and/or a drug abuser. What good would that do to an unborn child whilst in the womb, let alone outside? Babies have no choice or say in anything. Babies in that position are either aborted and therefore know nothing of life nor know of their own existence, or they risk being born into an underprivileged, poverty striken life where their mother is someone who is unable to care for them, let alone care for themselves. So tell me which is fair in that scenario?

 

I know I'm probably going to get the response "they can have their baby adopted by someone who CAN look after it" but there are some people who DON'T give up their babies for adoption. Fact. PLUS, if their mother did indeed use substances whilst pregnant, this can make the child an addict too and once they're born they end up having withdrawal symptoms if they don't get what they had when they were in the womb. Fact.

 

If you can't look after a child, don't get pregnant. It's as simple as that in my eyes

 

I understand where people are coming from if they are against abortion. The process isn't very pleasant nor is it very dignified, and don't get me wrong, I understand the murder reference too, but abortions aren't necessarily about mothers being selfish and stupid (not saying anyone has said that but I'm sure that there are several people out there who have had abortions just because they were careless) but it's also about putting the baby's best interests at heart. Would I ever have an abortion? I don't know unless I'm in the position. I wouldn't like to have an abortion, there are such extreme emotions involved, but there are times when I think it can be necessary.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

Yes, plus there is also another factor to consider, which many prospective parents DO consider. If a mother has been doing drugs or has a problem with alcohol, or certain personality disorders, which is very likely if she's been abusing substances during a pregnancy, there is a high possibility of that child having the same problems.

Research shows that personality is very highly determined genetically, and so is mental illness, so that child has high chances of being "screwed up" since the start, and many people do not wish to adopt a child with such baggage. That's just the way things are.

[sariflor]

Oh, and as another example of the Catholic Church being unrealistic and "difficult" when it comes to its stance in regards to abortion and general family planning, is the fact that they take their "anti abortion" stance so far that they even oppose to contraception. Of course, this does not only mean that they actively try to stop people from using contraception, but of course they extend it to things like the morning after pill, which pretty much means that if one is in an unwanted pregnancy, that is it.

And I am not saying by any means that what I will tell now is a general occurance, but I certainly have evidence of it first hand, and would like to post it here to illustrate how important it is that we have the freedom to do what we want in regards to this family planning situation.

The area of Madrid where I used to live had a very high concentration of Opus Dei members (yes, this does happen in real life outside of the Dan Brown novel, and yes, they are totally radical). I had a lot of exposure to this Organisation and how they work through an ex partner whose father was an active member of Opus Dei, and who (my bf) suffered many years of attempted brainwashing and threats by them, etc... so I know a fair bit about them.

Anyway, one of their members was a lady who had a pharmacy in the area. This was a residential area with only one pharmacy those days, so she was the only one around. Well, her stance as a Catholic and as an Opus Dei "supernumerary" -their secular members- was that she refused to sell condoms or any other contraception to people who were not married. And that was it. She refused, so she did not.

How is that right? She has the right to have her principles, but if you have a pharmacy, in my opinion this is a public health service, and individual beliefs should hold no place in what you provide for the community.

I realise that this may be a little off topic, but it was to point out how often situations are a result of cumulative circumstances, and that the Catholic Church has a very rstrong hand in how things are done, which is a shame.

[laura*]

Are you saying then, that abortion should not be an option if one is going to have a child with Down's?

 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

I'm not saying for a second that many kids with Down's or other disabilities don't have a good life, but what I am saying, and will carry on saying until my last breath, is that nobody but the parents-to-be of that child are in the position to decide whether they want to carry on with the pregnancy that will bring culminate in bringing the child into this world.

 

Circumstances vary massively, and children with disabilities require certain care throughout their life, and if they survive their parents, after that. there is a lot to take into account, which nobody but the people in that situation are entitled to decide.

 

Laura, you say that there are tons of people waiting to adopt,etc... Yes, that is the case, but sadly, most people want to adopt perfect kids (preferably babies) and there are plenty of children from worse backgrounds or disabilities who are never adopted. It's really not as simple as you paint it.

 

Oh, and to finish, I agree with what Tiibet said earlier: abortion in any case is never an easy choice. Most women who go through it will tell you that it was a terribly difficult decision to make, whichever way they decided, and that the weight of that decision will live with them forever.

And, again, I want to stress that my point is not to say if abortion is right or wrong, but just that it should be a right.

 

Pro-choice propaganda has worked wonders with you! Unfortunately figures are against you, at least in my country. Lots of well-off women abort perfectly healthy babies, just because they don't want a baby at that time of their life. And since they belong to upper-classes, giving away their baby for adoption would be shameful. The pregnancy must be hidden. Isn't it a bit silly? It's not murder, it's not bad, but you must keep it secret. I really don't understand. Talking about the case of disabilities is really useless anyway. How many cases are there?

The fact that abortion is dangerous and extremely painful can be overlooked, apparently. Freedom and choice for everyone!

The most disturbing thing for me is that some doctors have the guts to perform such a disgusting operation so many times, even several times on the same woman.

[southeast]

You know the joke about a scientist, a RK priest and a Jewish rabbi who discussed the question „When does human life begin?“

 

The priest said: “Human life begins in the moment when the egg cell has been fertilized even before she has settled in the uterus.”

 

The scientist said: “No, no, the life of a human being begins only after the fertilized egg cell has reached the uterus and has settled in there.”

 

The Rabbi said: “Life begins when your children move out and your old dog dies.”

 

[laura*]

You know the joke about a scientist, a RK priest and a Jewish rabbi who discussed the question „When does human life begin?“

 

The priest said: “Human life begins in the moment when the egg cell has been fertilized even before she has settled in the uterus.”

 

The scientist said: “No, no, the life of a human being begins only after the fertilized egg cell has reached the uterus and has settled in there.”

 

The Rabbi said: “Life begins when your children move out and your old dog dies.”

 

 

[basicamenteyo]

You know the joke about a scientist, a RK priest and a Jewish rabbi who discussed the question „When does human life begin?“

 

The priest said: “Human life begins in the moment when the egg cell has been fertilized even before she has settled in the uterus.”

 

The scientist said: “No, no, the life of a human being begins only after the fertilized egg cell has reached the uterus and has settled in there.”

 

The Rabbi said: “Life begins when your children move out and your old dog dies.”

 

 

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

GENIUS!!!!!!!!!

 

*goes to congratulate the Rabbi*

[laura*]

Strangely, I don't find it a particularly amusing topic.

[southeast]

 

Ouch! What?

 

I am sorry about the dog.

 

EDIT: Oh, I am sorry! I just wanted to lighten up the mood on the thread. I am going to hide on the MGMT thread again.

 

Edited October 7, 2010 by southeast

[basicamenteyo]

Strangely, I don't find it a particularly amusing topic.

 

i wasn´t laughing about the topic,but about the joke SE did.... and it was funny... (not the topic,but the joke)...

[sariflor]

Pro-choice propaganda has worked wonders with you!

 

You know Laura, I was being very careful in this thread, trying not to offend anyone, be respectful with everyone, etc, but seeing that you're coming out with rubbish like this, I am done.

I've said what I had to say, and it's pointless trying to talk and discuss something with people when they say things like these. I take great offence to your comment, because it's highly patronising and it insults my intelligence to suggest that I am susceptible to propaganda. I could carry on but it wouldn't be pretty so I think that the best thing I can do is just ignore you. I hope that you will do the same.

 

Unfortunately figures are against you, at least in my country. Lots of well-off women abort perfectly healthy babies, just because they don't want a baby at that time of their life. And since they belong to upper-classes, giving away their baby for adoption would be shameful. The pregnancy must be hidden. Isn't it a bit silly? It's not murder, it's not bad, but you must keep it secret. I really don't understand. Talking about the case of disabilities is really useless anyway. How many cases are there?

The fact that abortion is dangerous and extremely painful can be overlooked, apparently. Freedom and choice for everyone!

The most disturbing thing for me is that some doctors have the guts to perform such a disgusting operation so many times, even several times on the same woman.

 

Just one last comment to say that this is rubbish.

If lots of perfectly healthy babies -which they aren't at that stage, but anyway, just to humour you- are being aborted just because the mothers don't fancy having a baby at that particular time, that would be a great scandal due to its illegal nature, and it would have had massive coverage. I doubt that you would even have any form of official stats, because, again, it's not legal to abort just for the sake of it.

And if this IS in fact happening in Italy as you claim, then the reform needs to be made in the legal and sanitary system so that it controls this better. The solution is not to outlaw abortion, but to ensure that it's carried out within the legal specifications.

 

You have your views on the matter with will obviously not change, which is fine, but please don't try and manufacture "facts" to try and back them up, and don't attack others because they have their own views. Incidentally, most civilised countries seem to favour my view, so I guess that it could mean something

 

In any case, as I said above, I'm done discussing with you now. Have a good evening.

[CazGirl]

Just one last comment to say that this is rubbish.

If lots of perfectly healthy babies -which they aren't at that stage, but anyway, just to humour you- are being aborted just because the mothers don't fancy having a baby at that particular time, that would be a great scandal due to its illegal nature, and it would have had massive coverage. I doubt that you would even have any form of official stats, because, again, it's not legal to abort just for the sake of it.

And if this IS in fact happening in Italy as you claim, then the reform needs to be made in the legal and sanitary system so that it controls this better. The solution is not to outlaw abortion, but to ensure that it's carried out within the legal specifications.

 

You have your views on the matter with will obviously not change, which is fine, but please don't try and manufacture "facts" to try and back them up, and don't attack others because they have their own views. Incidentally, most civilised countries seem to favour my view, so I guess that it could mean something

 

In any case, as I said above, I'm done discussing with you now. Have a good evening.

 

Just to back you up here Sara, these are the rules on abortion in the UK:

 

"Up to 24 weeks two doctors must decide that the risk to a woman’s physical or mental health or the risk to her child(ren)’s physical or mental health will be greater if she continues with the pregnancy than if she ends it.

 

There is no time limit on abortion where two doctors agree that a woman’s health or life is gravely threatened by continuing with the pregnancy or that the fetus is likely to be born with severe physical or mental abnormalities. "

 

http://www.efc.org.uk/Foryoungpeople/Factsaboutabortion/MoreonUKabortionlaw

 

And abortions in Italy:

 

"talian women are eligible to request an abortion for health, economic or social reasons, including the circumstances under which conception occurred. Abortions are performed free-of-charge in public hospitals or in private structures authorized by the regional health authorities. The law also allows termination in the second trimester of the pregnancy only in one of the following cases: a) when the life of the woman would be at risk if the pregnancy is carried to term; b) the fetus carries genetic or other serious malformations which would put the mother at risk of serious psychological or physical consequences."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Italy

Edited October 7, 2010 by CazGirl

[RAK1]

You know Laura, I was being very careful in this thread, trying not to offend anyone, be respectful with everyone, etc, but seeing that you're coming out with rubbish like this, I am done.

I've said what I had to say, and it's pointless trying to talk and discuss something with people when they say things like these. I take great offence to your comment, because it's highly patronising and it insults my intelligence to suggest that I am susceptible to propaganda. I could carry on but it wouldn't be pretty so I think that the best thing I can do is just ignore you. I hope that you will do the same.

 

 

 

 

Just one last comment to say that this is rubbish.

 

If lots of perfectly healthy babies -which they aren't at that stage, but anyway, just to humour you- are being aborted just because the mothers don't fancy having a baby at that particular time, that would be a great scandal due to its illegal nature, and it would have had massive coverage. I doubt that you would even have any form of official stats, because, again, it's not legal to abort just for the sake of it.

And if this IS in fact happening in Italy as you claim, then the reform needs to be made in the legal and sanitary system so that it controls this better. The solution is not to outlaw abortion, but to ensure that it's carried out within the legal specifications.

 

You have your views on the matter with will obviously not change, which is fine, but please don't try and manufacture "facts" to try and back them up, and don't attack others because they have their own views. Incidentally, most civilised countries seem to favour my view, so I guess that it could mean something

 

In any case, as I said above, I'm done discussing with you now. Have a good evening.

 

Can't speak for Italy, but I know that in the past people in this country, did use abortion as another form of contraception, if they got pregnant by accident.

From speaking to people who have done it, and my sister while she was doing her nurses training having dealt with women (perfectly healthy and not bad off), just because they either stupidly didn't take contraception on the fallacy that "it wouldn't happen to them", or that that just thought they would just get the abortion if they did!

This I don't agree with, there is plenty of different modes of contraception out there, using abortion as one, I find abhorrant and barbaric.

They didn't think of how it would actually affect them by having it, sometimes by not being able to have a child later on, or the psychological effect directly after. I've met people who have found it quite traumatic and have been very upset by it.

It's not just Catholics who fall into this trap, and for those who aren't, I could never understand why they didn't get the morning after pill, if they didn't use contraception at the time.

[CazGirl]

Can't speak for Italy, but I know that in the past people in this country, did use abortion as another form of contraception, if they got pregnant by accident.

From speaking to people who have done it, and my sister while she was doing her nurses training having dealt with women (perfectly healthy and not bad off), just because they either stupidly didn't take contraception on the fallacy that "it wouldn't happen to them", or that that just thought they would just get the abortion if they did!

This I don't agree with, there is plenty of different modes of contraception out there, using abortion as one, I find abhorrant and barbaric.

They didn't think of how it would actually affect them by having it, sometimes by not being able to have a child later on, or the psychological effect directly after. I've met people who have found it quite traumatic and have been very upset by it.

It's not just Catholics who fall into this trap, and for those who aren't, I could never understand why they didn't get the morning after pill, if they didn't use contraception at the time.

 

Yes I understand that. People think they'll be okay after an abortion but it really does affect you emotionally and mentally. Hell, not just an abortion but a miscarriage as well. My half-sister gave birth to a still-born at 8 months and it's absolutely taken her years to get over it. In fact, she still hasn't fully recovered from the experience and that was...oh my gosh, erm...more than 10 years ago, let's put it that way.

[laura*]

You know Laura, I was being very careful in this thread, trying not to offend anyone, be respectful with everyone, etc, but seeing that you're coming out with rubbish like this, I am done.

I've said what I had to say, and it's pointless trying to talk and discuss something with people when they say things like these. I take great offence to your comment, because it's highly patronising and it insults my intelligence to suggest that I am susceptible to propaganda. I could carry on but it wouldn't be pretty so I think that the best thing I can do is just ignore you. I hope that you will do the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just one last comment to say that this is rubbish.

If lots of perfectly healthy babies -which they aren't at that stage, but anyway, just to humour you- are being aborted just because the mothers don't fancy having a baby at that particular time, that would be a great scandal due to its illegal nature, and it would have had massive coverage. I doubt that you would even have any form of official stats, because, again, it's not legal to abort just for the sake of it.

And if this IS in fact happening in Italy as you claim, then the reform needs to be made in the legal and sanitary system so that it controls this better. The solution is not to outlaw abortion, but to ensure that it's carried out within the legal specifications.

 

You have your views on the matter with will obviously not change, which is fine, but please don't try and manufacture "facts" to try and back them up, and don't attack others because they have their own views. Incidentally, most civilised countries seem to favour my view, so I guess that it could mean something

 

In any case, as I said above, I'm done discussing with you now. Have a good evening.

 

Well, your point of view on the Catholic Church wasn't particularly kind either. Especially because the Church has got a very positive view of the relationship between husband and wife, sex and marriage. If narrow-minded people can only see the rules set against abortion and contraception, they are just limiting the Catholic perspective.

I had to study theology at university, it was compulsory, I can assure you that they are not only stubborn, reactionary and old-fashioned idiots. There are pretty cool people among them and they have doctors who support their view with scientific evidence.

Lots of doctors who performed abortions changed their mind when technology allowed them to understand and see what happened inside the womb. Later on some of them admitted telling lots of lies to convince the public opinion that there was no baby involved and they said that illegal abortions were more frequent than they really were. After an abortion you can see a real unborn baby after only a few weeks.The shape is that of a real baby: hands, arms, legs, feet, eyes, head, heart. Have you ever seen photos? In some countries you can even get an abortion when the baby could live on its own.

Please, produce figures to support your view. Mine are opposed to what you say. You can find them on the Internet, just google them. You will see that the great majority of abortions are due to the fact that women don't want the (healthy) baby or are forced not to keep the baby. I thought it went without saying.

The Church is strict, perhaps, but people don't know the truth about abortion. It's unfair.

 

BTW Italian women who could afford it used to travel to the UK to get an abortion before the law that regulated legal abortion passed.

Edited October 7, 2010 by laura*