2012 - Mika Tells Instinct, “Yeah, I’m gay.”

[suzie]

Indeed, it' quite similar attitude. But the recent anti-gay riots and banning gay parade in Serbia are not only the part of ex-communist heritage but also a result of extreme nationalistic, conservative and clerical tendencies here. Actually we fight with these social mileux all the time, but ex Yugoslavia, as you know was not part of the Eastern block, but more politically and cultural inclined to the West.

 

Thank you for your perspective on this. I think it is safe to conclude we have similar tendencies not only due to the common history but also a more conservative interpretation of the Bible and more patristic traditions by the Orthodox and Roman Cartholic churches in this region vs Protestantism in NW Europe..

I don't have time to write more but I think it is an interesting topic as religion does shape cultures and influences an individual's thinking even if they are 'non-believers'.

[Christine]

Let me clear up this for you.

I didn't mean phaedophile relationships of any kind, but had in my mind those sexually confused teenage boys and girls (and it's quite normal for some of them) who could create or even twist their own sexual identity under pressure of adults and not freely, based on their own predominant tendencies.

 

Sorry I don't understand sure what you mean by "create...their own sexual identity under pressure". Do you mean adults are convincing otherwise straight teens that they are gay?

[NowTheDreamsWontDo]

Sorry I don't understand sure what you mean by "create...their own sexual identity under pressure". Do you mean adults are convincing otherwise straight teens that they are gay?

 

I think she means it the other way around... You know teens (or children even) who feel pressured by their community to be straight, while they may feel that that's just not... them.

 

Besides, who does that, even? Apart from me that is. XD

 

Edit: Just realized now that, even though I suppose it's less common, people do have a universal tendency to create quaint little categories and while for some the only acceptable category may be straight, for others there may be straight & gay but no category for everything in between, which I believe cannot really be considered a category to begin with. So yes, there actually would be cases in which a bisexual child is pressured to be gay.

 

Can't believe I just forgot about my own bloody situation haha. Must be progress me thinks, cough cough.

Edited August 10, 2012 by NowTheDreamsWontDo

[suzie]

Just realized now that, even though I suppose it's less common, people do have a universal tendency to create quaint little categories and while for some the only acceptable category may be straight, for others there may be straight & gay but no category for everything in between, which I believe cannot really be considered a category to begin with. So yes, there actually would be cases in which a bisexual child is pressured to be gay.

 

I guess one can't be 'pressured' to be gay though, only 'considered' to be gay, but I think it has more to do with the fact that some people can be uncertain about their orientation. For example, is a guy who leaves his family for another man gay or bi? Did he really fall for his wife or 'forced himself' to settle? Perhaps not even the person is sure.

It reminds me of George Michael saying how his Brazilian lover 'taught him' he was gay. When I first heard that I thought he was either talking about a 'gay lifestyle' he was exploring or, worst case scenario, make excuses why he was hiding it before. For he must have realised his orientation by the end of his twenties without anyone having to tell him However, I tend to believe now that he was talking about considering himself bisexual and his guy persuading him that he was actually gay.

 

I think sexuality could definitely be more complex for some people than being put into 2 or 3 categories. Is a transvestite gay or straight, for example? Or what about a person defining themselves as genderless?

[AnnaMariaPetra]

I wonder how can anyone write such critical, offensive things of straightforwardness without having your personal experience of even living in Russia at present. That`s a cliche .

 

Russia is not homophobic. Not more than any other secular country where Church has been accepted as a traditional institution. Russian Orthodox Church doesn`t fight or discriminate against LGBT people. It teaches tolerance, just like Christianity in general. It doesn`t affect our lives so much - actually, about 40 % of Russian population remain atheistic. As to me - I`m orthodox and I`m a believer , btw.

 

Many things should be changed about our mentality and way we live, but Russia is not homophobic.

 

Unfortunately this column is written in Dutch, but perhaps (google)translater can help:

http://moskoerier.wordpress.com/tag/homofobie-in-rusland/

 

I don't post this to put oil on the fire, but to try to make things clearer.

[NowTheDreamsWontDo]

I guess one can't be 'pressured' to be gay though, only 'considered' to be gay, but I think it has more to do with the fact that some people can be uncertain about their orientation. For example, is a guy who leaves his family for another man gay or bi? Did he really fall for his wife or 'forced himself' to settle? Perhaps not even the person is sure.

It reminds me of George Michael saying how his Brazilian lover 'taught him' he was gay. When I first heard that I thought he was either talking about a 'gay lifestyle' he was exploring or, worst case scenario, make excuses why he was hiding it before. For he must have realised his orientation by the end of his twenties without anyone having to tell him However, I tend to believe now that he was talking about considering himself bisexual and his guy persuading him that he was actually gay.

 

I think sexuality could definitely be more complex for some people than being put into 2 or 3 categories. Is a transvestite gay or straight, for example? Or what about a person defining themselves as genderless?

 

Hmmm... I guess we have landed here at the old "label" discussion... I think what you said about George's lover is probably right, but it completely depends on how you define aaall these labels, as you more or less pointed out already. I used to ask people what their definitions for me being straight/bi/gay would be, and then base my answer on theirs. Not the quickest method but it works and makes people think. Anyway, I think the main question should be if you count "just" attraction as being part of your sexuality, or to define it by who you fall in love with. It sounds silly to even think about that, but I find it is actually really effective. I'm just guessing here obviously, but George may have been attracted to men and women, but have fallen in love with this Brazilian guy, thus learning from him that ultimately, he is gay.

 

Bottom line: I hate labels lol.

[NowTheDreamsWontDo]

Unfortunately this column is written in Dutch, but perhaps (google)translater can help:

http://moskoerier.wordpress.com/tag/homofobie-in-rusland/

 

I don't post this to put oil on the fire, but to try to make things clearer.

 

Without making any judgement or rushing to any conclusions, I don't think there is such a thing as a non-homophobic country. I mean, I live in what is supposed to be the least homophobic country in the world and the first to legalize gay marriage (or you know, marriage), and I work & study in the most liberal city in that country, but even here there is homophobia everywhere.

[AnnaMariaPetra]

Without making any judgement or rushing to any conclusions, I don't think there is such a thing as a non-homophobic country. I mean, I live in what is supposed to be the least homophobic country in the world and the first to legalize gay marriage (or you know, marriage), and I work & study in the most liberal city in that country, but even here there is homophobia everywhere.

 

Ofcourse, I agree with that; but some countries are way more homophobic than others.

[suzie]

...approaching it from another perspective though, institutionalized homophobia does make a country homophobic. The question is where you draw the line: if it is criminizing homosexuality of 'only' not providing equal rights to gay people that counts as anti-gay attitudes institutionalized in any given country.

[NowTheDreamsWontDo]

...approaching it from another perspective though, institutionalized homophobia does make a country homophobic. The question is where you draw the line: if it is criminizing homosexuality of 'only' not providing equal rights to gay people that counts as anti-gay attitudes institutionalized in any given country.

 

One step at a time but HUGE giant steps?

[suzie]

One step at a time but HUGE giant steps?

 

not sure what you mean but one giant step can be decriminalising it. It is still illegal in some countries so people get sent to prison or even get capital punishment for it

[NowTheDreamsWontDo]

not sure what you mean but one giant step can be decriminalising it. It is still illegal in some countries so people get sent to prison or even get capital punishment for it

 

Meant just that actually. Not mini steps like decreasing the amount of jail time from 20 to 19 years but decriminalising it altogether ASAP.

[Sephira]

...approaching it from another perspective though, institutionalized homophobia does make a country homophobic. The question is where you draw the line: if it is criminizing homosexuality of 'only' not providing equal rights to gay people that counts as anti-gay attitudes institutionalized in any given country.

 

In our occidental point of view, we can say what we think about near everything, we critic others countries because for us there's not human to condamne people to prison or to death because they loves a person of the same sex but you understand that in countries direct by fanatics it is really dificult to make things change

You have to understand that in the point of view of those countries our civilisation is seen as decadent and corrupt by sex and money (finally not so wrong )

Except saving LGBT people from those countries there's nothing to do for the moment.

 

We are human it is normal to have the same rights and duties but you have to considere that for adoption it is a problem, because it's really difficult for a woman to adopt a child in numerous countries ( in France you have to wait years and at the end no child to adopt ) and I don't think that people accept that a men couple could have the same priority for adoption

[Shine]

Thank you for your perspective on this. I think it is safe to conclude we have similar tendencies not only due to the common history but also a more conservative interpretation of the Bible and more patristic traditions by the Orthodox and Roman Cartholic churches in this region vs Protestantism in NW Europe..

I don't have time to write more but I think it is an interesting topic as religion does shape cultures and influences an individual's thinking even if they are 'non-believers'.

 

 

Sorry I don't understand sure what you mean by "create...their own sexual identity under pressure". Do you mean adults are convincing otherwise straight teens that they are gay?

 

No, of course they don't. But these teenagers who are "stuck in the middle" might be turned into gay or straight persons under the strong influence of some adults on the subconscious level. I know a couple of examples when feminine young boys were openly seduced by adults and later they got married (this doesn't mean that they don't have such tendencies, but also incline to straight ones all the time).

The same is with girls. Human sexuality is so fluid that under different, complex and cultural circumstances (neurosis) at that sensitive age could be manipulated and obused by adults Imo.

 

I think she means it the other way around... You know teens (or children even) who feel pressured by their community to be straight, while they may feel that that's just not... them.

 

Besides, who does that, even? Apart from me that is. XD

 

Edit: Just realized now that, even though I suppose it's less common, people do have a universal tendency to create quaint little categories and while for some the only acceptable category may be straight, for others there may be straight & gay but no category for everything in between, which I believe cannot really be considered a category to begin with. So yes, there actually would be cases in which a bisexual child is pressured to be gay.

 

Can't believe I just forgot about my own bloody situation haha. Must be progress me thinks, cough cough.

 

Luckily you've got my point, and as you've said they are a lot of criteria to define someone as a straight, bi, gay or transgender person.

[Christine]

No, of course they don't. But these teenagers who are "stuck in the middle" might be turned into gay or straight persons under the strong influence of some adults on the subconscious level. I know a couple of examples when feminine young boys were openly seduced by adults and later they got married (this doesn't mean that they don't have such tendencies, but also incline to straight ones all the time).

The same is with girls. Human sexuality is so fluid that under different, complex and cultural circumstances (neurosis) at that sensitive age could be manipulated and obused by adults Imo.

 

Shine you say "of course they don't" and then you go on to say that they could. Which is it? Are adults convincing teens (subconsciously or otherwise) that they are gay...or not?

 

In any case I still don't understand what any of this has to do with sexual orientation. Of course adults have the potential to manipulate and abuse teens. Men are doing it to girls all the time which is why it is illegal for adults to have sex with minors

 

If teens are "stuck in the middle" and go on to get married then what makes you think that getting involved in a homosexual relationship was turning them gay or straight? Maybe they are bisexual?

 

Adults in society are pressuring teens to be straight all the time and it really doesn't work in the long run or we wouldn't even be discussing homosexuality because it wouldn't exist.

[tiibet]

I've been reading back this thread and realizing more and more how these issues (sexual identity etc) are not easy or totally clear or any way black and white (sometimes reading these discussions makes things look even more confusing than they are, lol).

 

I do feel very strongly that it's a human right to love whoever we want to (as long as the both persons are adults/capable of making their own decisions) and I think all people are equal and should be treated equally. I can't understand what any church has to do with it. Personally I'm not a member of the church any more, because a couple of years ago some official members of the Finnish church published some very homophobic statements and I can't be a part of an institution like that (even it wasn't any general statement). I'm not actually an atheist, and I'm very touched by the ending of TOOL and the part "thank god that you found me" because it's actually something I could say myself, even I'm not sure what or who I believe or if I do. My children are still members of the church to get the religion education at school (and can decide what to do when 18 yo).

 

About sexuality. It's something really personal and can be seen in so many different ways. I guess many of us could have a sexual relationship with the same gender if the circumstances or the timing were right and if we could avoid expectations or rules created by our society? I know I could. If we talk about sexual attraction, does it really matter if the other person is male or female? What's the difference? (Don't take it literally, I know the difference, but does it matter?) How do we define straight, homosexual or bisexual in the first place? Is it about feeling physically attracted by the opposite/same gender, about falling in love (in a romantic way) or about our behavior in real life (when restricted also by expectations/traditions). If people meet someone perfect and fall in love - do they let the gender issue come between? I don't know

 

I'm hetero and married to a man. If I wasn't married I could easily imagine being sexually attracted by a woman. On the other hand, I really couldn't see myself falling in love with a woman that easily, I don't even like most women... The most important people in my life have always been men and people I see interesting or fascinating are always male: my favorite authors, artists, actors, film directors, politicians... I simply love it how men are so straightforward and easy-going, I love their way of thinking, their (social) world is just built like that, I almost envy it and wish I could be a part of it. For women everything is different and I really don't think it's all biological, our society makes people behave in certain ways. In an ideal world (for me) people would be totally androgyne and able show their both sides. I even love the androgyne look and find it really attractive.

 

My point is that these things are not always clear even to someone who has always known/thought to be a heterosexual. I bet sometimes people are even much more confused, and without any social expectations/rules/traditions people would probably cross these boundaries much more easily (some people are raised to think they don't have any options, some people start to seek their sexual identity quite late).

 

I'm really happy Mika is finally talking about this issue openly, because I really appreciate his honesty and I feel relieved for him (less questions, no more hiding, no need to be careful and avoid saying he/she when talking about his partner, it must have been tiring?). If he publicly says he is gay he must be really comfortable with it and sure about his feelings and I'm really happy for him. He is a private person. I could never think he is talking about his sexuality just to sell records, but more like finally handling the issue which has been out there for years. It's a big step. He has made a happy, joyful album. Maybe it was a suitable time to share he is actually happy for real?

 

(Edit: I read my post and I'm not sure I used all correct English words, but don't know how to say it better atm)

Edited August 11, 2012 by tiibet

[robertina]

Thank you Nina, I think most of what you've written myself too

 

I think there are far more than 50 shades of sexual orientation in human kind

[suzie]

@tiibet if you think you could fall in love with a woman you are not hetero though. Often people think that rules don't apply to them but I don't think it is that complicated.

[tiibet]

@tiibet if you think you could fall in love with a woman you are not hetero though. Often people think that rules don't apply to them but I don't think it is that complicated.

 

My point was that this is personal and we have a right to define ourselves as we like. I'm happily married to a man and I haven't had any relationships with women so I naturally see myself as heterosexual (even though in different circumstances I would probably be quite open-minded).

[sienna]

My point was that this is personal and we have a right to define ourselves as we like. I'm happily married to a man and I haven't had any relationships with women so I naturally see myself as heterosexual (even though in different circumstances I would probably be quite open-minded).

 

I loved to read your long and beautiful post and agree with a lot of the things you said!

 

@tiibet if you think you could fall in love with a woman you are not hetero though. Often people think that rules don't apply to them but I don't think it is that complicated.

 

You never know what life will bring you!

 

I see myself as hereo too, I've been married and have children but sometimes along the way in a long life you may have a surprise, you'll never know!

[Christine]

I see myself as hereo too, I've been married and have children but sometimes along the way in a long life you may have a surprise, you'll never know!

 

I am looking for European citizenship so if you ever need a wife just let me know.

[suzie]

My point was that this is personal and we have a right to define ourselves as we like. I'm happily married to a man and I haven't had any relationships with women so I naturally see myself as heterosexual (even though in different circumstances I would probably be quite open-minded).

The definition of heterosexual does not mean 'married to a man'. It is a personal thing, yes, but you must have an idea if you are attracted to women or not. If you already think you could be attracted to women you are not heterosexual.

[suzie]

You never know what life will bring you!

I see myself as hereo too, I've been married and have children but sometimes along the way in a long life you may have a surprise, you'll never know!

 

I'd prefer other surprises in a long life:roftl:

[tiibet]

Thank you Nina, I think most of what you've written myself too

 

I loved to read your long and beautiful post and agree with a lot of the things you said!

 

I'm glad to know people have these similar thoughts! I wasn't sure if it's silly to actually write how I think...

 

The definition of heterosexual does not mean 'married to a man'. It is a personal thing, yes, but you must have an idea if you are attracted to women or not. If you already think you could be attracted to women you are not heterosexual.

 

Call me whatever you want. Call me bisexual...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously speaking. I've always seen myself as heterosexual. If someone wants to put people like me into another category I'm just fine with it. It's just a word. I'm an adult and very happy with my life and sexuality, so it doesn't make any difference to me (or to my husband either, he is a very tolerant person).

[suzie]

Call me whatever you want.

 

Just to clarify, it was you defining youself but you either attached the wrong label to yourself or can't define how you feel exactly. Being tolerant does NOT mean that you can imagine yourself to be attracted to anyone - men and women alike. You are born with your sexual orientation and it does not change - people may simply repress it.

Otherwise your post was a really good summary of what everyone seems to agree about here.

Edited August 11, 2012 by suzie