Rufus Wainwright

[guylainem123]

river fish, i see you joined in May, yet i don't see an introduction thread, so we could welcome you on our forum. shame you wasted your first thread with a controversy.

 

obviously, with your name, you must be a mika fan no?

[mandilambi]

ok, let's stop this here. if you have anything to say to hollyd, please do it in pm. there is no need to pollute rufus' thread with nasty comments back and forth.

 

enough is enough!

 

I agree...enough is enough. For everyone that is not involved in the disagreements about Rufus fans, etc., the comments back and forth about it is tiresome. Take it in private, pretty please...or let's just get back to some good ole' Rufus-lovin.

Edited June 3, 2010 by mandilambi

[FREDDIESDOUBLE]

River fish , none of your buisness . . I made a decision based on what I saw , no there was no need .. but still Im still not to keen on what Im seeing

 

Guy is right .. take this to PM

[Marianne84]

I've been watching Rufus's movie scenes on YouTube. I'm sure

would be worth watching for its two beautiful scenes featuring an imaginary Rufus alone. How fabulously does he sing! He sounds like a real opera singer.

 

I've seen Aviator years ago, but I wasn't a Rufus fan back then, so I couldn't know it was him. His scene is great in it, too.

 

What films have you seen that Rufus plays a part in?

[River_Fish]

there is no need to pollute rufus' thread with nasty comments

 

Here here! let's hope now going forward there will be no more as that is what caused all this in the first place

 

river fish, i see you joined in May, yet i don't see an introduction thread, so we could welcome you on our forum. …obviously, with your name, you must be a mika fan no?

 

I joined back in 2008 but I can’t remember my login details as I had never posted. I am a Mika Fan and after my first Mika concerts in Boston/NY and Chicago (amazing shows!!) I joined up here. I don’t post but I do pop-in very often.

[River_Fish]

I've been watching Rufus's movie scenes on YouTube. I'm sure

would be worth watching for its two beautiful scenes featuring an imaginary Rufus alone. How fabulously does he sing! He sounds like a real opera singer.

 

Oh i love Rufus singing on this...his voice really is amazing. Marianne - have you seen these - they are from a documentary called Stormy Weather: The Music of Harold Arlen.

 

 

[guylainem123]

Here here! let's hope now going forward there will be no more as that is what caused all this in the first place

 

 

 

I joined back in 2008 but I can’t remember my login details as I had never posted. I am a Mika Fan and after my first Mika concerts in Boston/NY and Chicago (amazing shows!!) I joined up here. I don’t post but I do pop-in very often.

 

you could have pmed a mod with the email address you used or any info you remembered & we could have looked it up for you. it's not too late if you wish to do so.

 

let's move forward from here!

 

it's never too late to introduce yourself

i hear those were amazing shows. i'm looking forward to mika coming back on this side of the pond!

[mandilambi]

Here here! let's hope now going forward there will be no more as that is what caused all this in the first place

 

 

 

I joined back in 2008 but I can’t remember my login details as I had never posted. I am a Mika Fan and after my first Mika concerts in Boston/NY and Chicago (amazing shows!!) I joined up here. I don’t post but I do pop-in very often.

 

Ah, which Chicago show did you attend?

[River_Fish]

Ah, which Chicago show did you attend?

 

House of Blues....Feb 2008:king:

[mandilambi]

Awesome! I was a Lollipop Girl for that show.

[Zola]

River fish , none of your buisness . . I made a decision based on what I saw , no there was no need .. but still Im still not to keen on what Im seeing

 

Guy is right .. take this to PM

 

Wow. What an oppressive regime on this forum! How surprising, considering the peace and love that was being preached before.

I also would like to know why this thread was locked? It is usually the duty of admin to explain why this was done, otherwise it's a bit of power abuse isn't it?

Was there something inappropriate going on? All I saw was people pointing out verbal abuse, and coming to set the record straight. Defending ourselves against untrue comments surely is allowed?

Admin didn't like what they were seeing the past few days? So you are saying that the past nastiness was ok by you?

 

You all are saying basically that because you don't agree with what we are saying that we should just shut up?

Enough is enough?

Why not actually read the comments? We were not trying to pollute this thread. It's been done enough already by others! And we are pointing out what we think is extremely out of order. And you are trying to silence us? What kind of dictatorship is this? Will this post get me banned?

 

We came here thinking we could connect with Mika fans who are also Rufus fans, and then to read into past comments, and not just this thread but the other ones about Rufus as well, and to see such horribly offensive comments back and forth about people I personally know...

 

You say we have no right to feel insulted and to express our outrage?

Or just to keep our outrage private? There is no guarantee a PM would be answered or even acknowledged and the problem is much deeper than that in any case. This is something that should be talked about publicly, if anything to prevent others from behaving in a similar manner in the future.

 

This is not some petty argument between fans or however people are trying to portray it. It is much bigger than that.

It truly is an unpleasant business and not so much fun to talk about, but surely such behavior should be addressed instead of ignored or accepted?

 

Why is it that those in question have not actually responded? Sure the initial comments started here 2 years ago, but having read this entire thread before posts started to disappear, I saw a systematic tendency by some to just say awful things about the RWMB whenever it was brought up. A veritable smear campaign. Detrimental to everyone involved, because it causes people to not want to meet other fans and just destroys the fan culture.

And as was pointed out this was still going on until very recently!

Everyone seems to be trying to sweep all of this under the rug, or dismiss us as trying to stir up controversy. What I see is a serious breach of respect by outright lying and nobody caring that it was going on.

 

I'm sorry, but editing and deleting said offensive comments, trying to make it look like they were never there, a thread where previously there were disparaging comments, suddenly the number of pages in that thread goes down? Posts that used to exist suddenly have mysteriously disappeared. Someone is working hard to cover their tracks.

 

That suggests guilt to me. And believe me, those mentioned in the rude comments already know and have seen them for themselves. So deleting the words will not make them forget how they were insulted. Whitewashing everything is not going to make it go away.

Why not be an adult and own up to your comments? If you think you are absolutely correct, why all of these actions that suggest guilt?

 

You say if you wanted to discuss it you would have come to our forum? Well it is clear you had a lot to say considering the volume of insults I read on here.

What gives you the right to spread malicious lies about people? It sure is easy when you think you won't get caught doing it.

 

Is this not a discussion forum? Why will nobody discuss the blatant insulting that was taking place? Are your memories so short or selective that you choose to ignore it?

The comment I quoted before, what about that? Is that acceptable behavior? Or is it ok because it wasn't about anyone on this forum?

When you post a link to a video and then point someone out in it saying, oh this is her name and she did this and that, how is this appropriate? It is not only defaming someone's character, but also now complete strangers will know her face.

 

And whoever said it does not matter to them the provenance of photos and videos, well it wouldn't matter to you since you did not take them. But the people who own them certainly DO care. They don't want people taking credit for their hard work. Would you?

 

We are not here to insult anyone, and I do not see any real nastiness except what was already written before we even got here. It's unfortunate that when we are pointing out wrong-doing it is seen as tiresome, instead of something that should have been looked into a while ago.

 

Just because the bulk of the comments were from 2 years ago, does not make it ok.

Just because comments have now been amended or deleted does not make it ok.

And there has been no hint of remorse whatsoever, which is shocking.

 

It's easy to dismiss something that doesn't concern you, but if someone referred to you and fellow fans as skanky bitches with their heads up their arses, how would you feel?

Maybe it is because we are talking about your fellow MFCers that you know and like that it is difficult to read and accept or understand. But using such language about anyone is just wrong, especially when there is no truth in it. Everyone knows this, surely.

 

Admins are not able to check up on every single thread all the time, and on a forum like this one with such a large number of them I am sure it can be difficult.

So shouldn't members police themselves and others? If you see such a rude and inappropriate remark, should you not suggest the person who wrote it perhaps curb their language? Or leave it for a private setting?

 

You're telling us to settle it via private messages, well that is certainly hypocritical.

When insulting others was the order of the day, nobody told them to keep it private. I can only assume the people who made the disparaging remarks thought of this thread and the other one about the Florida shows as their own private discussion area, and never thought that those talked about

would ever see it let alone speak up.

 

We thought this could be a nice place to talk about an artist we all enjoy, and instead we see it's just been a thread where insults were thrown around and people just let it slide. It is frankly rather disgusting, and even after having pointed it out nobody is stepping up to talk about it. Which is disappointing and disconcerting.

I like Mika a lot, but am not so sure I would want to meet any of you if there was a possibility I'd get bitched about when my back was turned.

 

So perhaps the lesson should be to watch what you say on the internet, because there are no guarantees that your comments won't make it back to the people they were about. And once it's out in the open, you really can't take it back. No matter how powerful the editing tools at your disposal are.

 

I'd like to apologize again to other members for the length of my post and for not speaking directly on the topic of this thread, but censorship angers me.

Apathy or acceptance in the face of verbal abuse, even more so.

[racinghorse83]

Wow. What an oppressive regime on this forum!

 

Look, hun.

 

One person on our forum may have said some stuff about Rufus fans. The rest of us, well, we DON'T GIVE A HOOT.

 

Of course the admins are getting rid of posts - this is a matter between one member of our fanclub and the rest of you. Most of the rest of us MFCers are casual Rufus Fans who like to come in this thread to chat about Rufus, not to read personal fights. Of course we want it opressed - we don't want to read it. Everyone has a right to put what they want on the internet, but everybody else doesn't have to be drawn into it and forced to read it when they come into the rufus thread.

This is a thread to talk about Rufus, not to hiss at each other.

I agree with the admins that everyone should sort out their differences by PM - casual rufus fans don't care! Thats why its being deleted - so people who want to chat about Rufus don't have to wade through pages of arguing, like I just had to do.

[racinghorse83]

We thought this could be a nice place to talk about an artist we all enjoy, and instead we see it's just been a thread where insults were thrown around and people just let it slide. It is frankly rather disgusting, and even after having pointed it out nobody is stepping up to talk about it. Which is disappointing and disconcerting.

I like Mika a lot, but am not so sure I would want to meet any of you if there was a possibility I'd get bitched about when my back was turned.

 

 

Look, that was, what, ONE member out of some 1,000 members who post regulary? And you're wondering why WE feel you all hate us, when you are claiming we'll be bitchy and horrible? I, for one, feel that thats a pretty sad comment to make. Get to know us, we're not all that bad. And I don't bitch about people.

Anyway, I get the feeling you all came over here cos of whatever member it was' comments, rather than 'a nice place to talk about mika'.

 

And, btw, it is a nice place to talk about mika, and usually a nice place to talk about Rufus, too.

 

TBH, i WAS going to go see Rufus this year.. but now i think i won't if his fans are like this

Edited June 3, 2010 by racinghorse83

[guylainem123]

Wow. What an oppressive regime on this forum! How surprising, considering the peace and love that was being preached before.

I also would like to know why this thread was locked? It is usually the duty of admin to explain why this was done, otherwise it's a bit of power abuse isn't it?

Was there something inappropriate going on? All I saw was people pointing out verbal abuse, and coming to set the record straight. Defending ourselves against untrue comments surely is allowed?

Admin didn't like what they were seeing the past few days? So you are saying that the past nastiness was ok by you?

 

You all are saying basically that because you don't agree with what we are saying that we should just shut up?

Enough is enough?

Why not actually read the comments? We were not trying to pollute this thread. It's been done enough already by others! And we are pointing out what we think is extremely out of order. And you are trying to silence us? What kind of dictatorship is this? Will this post get me banned?

 

We came here thinking we could connect with Mika fans who are also Rufus fans, and then to read into past comments, and not just this thread but the other ones about Rufus as well, and to see such horribly offensive comments back and forth about people I personally know...

 

You say we have no right to feel insulted and to express our outrage?

Or just to keep our outrage private? There is no guarantee a PM would be answered or even acknowledged and the problem is much deeper than that in any case. This is something that should be talked about publicly, if anything to prevent others from behaving in a similar manner in the future.

 

This is not some petty argument between fans or however people are trying to portray it. It is much bigger than that.

It truly is an unpleasant business and not so much fun to talk about, but surely such behavior should be addressed instead of ignored or accepted?

 

Why is it that those in question have not actually responded? Sure the initial comments started here 2 years ago, but having read this entire thread before posts started to disappear, I saw a systematic tendency by some to just say awful things about the RWMB whenever it was brought up. A veritable smear campaign. Detrimental to everyone involved, because it causes people to not want to meet other fans and just destroys the fan culture.

And as was pointed out this was still going on until very recently!

Everyone seems to be trying to sweep all of this under the rug, or dismiss us as trying to stir up controversy. What I see is a serious breach of respect by outright lying and nobody caring that it was going on.

 

I'm sorry, but editing and deleting said offensive comments, trying to make it look like they were never there, a thread where previously there were disparaging comments, suddenly the number of pages in that thread goes down? Posts that used to exist suddenly have mysteriously disappeared. Someone is working hard to cover their tracks.

 

That suggests guilt to me. And believe me, those mentioned in the rude comments already know and have seen them for themselves. So deleting the words will not make them forget how they were insulted. Whitewashing everything is not going to make it go away.

Why not be an adult and own up to your comments? If you think you are absolutely correct, why all of these actions that suggest guilt?

 

You say if you wanted to discuss it you would have come to our forum? Well it is clear you had a lot to say considering the volume of insults I read on here.

What gives you the right to spread malicious lies about people? It sure is easy when you think you won't get caught doing it.

 

Is this not a discussion forum? Why will nobody discuss the blatant insulting that was taking place? Are your memories so short or selective that you choose to ignore it?

The comment I quoted before, what about that? Is that acceptable behavior? Or is it ok because it wasn't about anyone on this forum?

When you post a link to a video and then point someone out in it saying, oh this is her name and she did this and that, how is this appropriate? It is not only defaming someone's character, but also now complete strangers will know her face.

 

And whoever said it does not matter to them the provenance of photos and videos, well it wouldn't matter to you since you did not take them. But the people who own them certainly DO care. They don't want people taking credit for their hard work. Would you?

 

We are not here to insult anyone, and I do not see any real nastiness except what was already written before we even got here. It's unfortunate that when we are pointing out wrong-doing it is seen as tiresome, instead of something that should have been looked into a while ago.

 

Just because the bulk of the comments were from 2 years ago, does not make it ok.

Just because comments have now been amended or deleted does not make it ok.

And there has been no hint of remorse whatsoever, which is shocking.

 

It's easy to dismiss something that doesn't concern you, but if someone referred to you and fellow fans as skanky bitches with their heads up their arses, how would you feel?

Maybe it is because we are talking about your fellow MFCers that you know and like that it is difficult to read and accept or understand. But using such language about anyone is just wrong, especially when there is no truth in it. Everyone knows this, surely.

 

Admins are not able to check up on every single thread all the time, and on a forum like this one with such a large number of them I am sure it can be difficult.

So shouldn't members police themselves and others? If you see such a rude and inappropriate remark, should you not suggest the person who wrote it perhaps curb their language? Or leave it for a private setting?

 

You're telling us to settle it via private messages, well that is certainly hypocritical.

When insulting others was the order of the day, nobody told them to keep it private. I can only assume the people who made the disparaging remarks thought of this thread and the other one about the Florida shows as their own private discussion area, and never thought that those talked about

would ever see it let alone speak up.

 

We thought this could be a nice place to talk about an artist we all enjoy, and instead we see it's just been a thread where insults were thrown around and people just let it slide. It is frankly rather disgusting, and even after having pointed it out nobody is stepping up to talk about it. Which is disappointing and disconcerting.

I like Mika a lot, but am not so sure I would want to meet any of you if there was a possibility I'd get bitched about when my back was turned.

 

So perhaps the lesson should be to watch what you say on the internet, because there are no guarantees that your comments won't make it back to the people they were about. And once it's out in the open, you really can't take it back. No matter how powerful the editing tools at your disposal are.

 

I'd like to apologize again to other members for the length of my post and for not speaking directly on the topic of this thread, but censorship angers me.

Apathy or acceptance in the face of verbal abuse, even more so.

 

i frankly didn't read the comments she made then and i'm not going to start reading posts from 6 months ago to see what hollyd said, just like i'm not joining your forum to see what you guys are saying about it either. i'm not defending hollyd, she's an adult and can take care of herself. it has nothing to do with the other fans.

 

i repeat myself.... enough IS enough! if you have anything else to say, tell hollyd in private! settle it with her NOT on the forum. there is no guarantee that she will read your pm, just like there is no guarantee she will read your posts.

 

when joining this forum, there are guidelines to follow. read them and abide by them, or leave... it's that simple.

Edited June 3, 2010 by guylainem123

[prussell716]

I think people are missing the point...

 

I guess I can't speak for Zola or River_Fish... but only myself. As a gay man - who grew up in a time not quite as accepting as we have today (not that it's all love and acceptance today - but light years from what it was)...

I know what it's like to have ugly and hateful insults thrown at you - for no good reason. It's how I grew up.

 

As I walk down the street and someone calls me some disparaging name or makes some inaccurate accusation... how should I respond? Do I send them a private message or a postcard as not to bother the other passers by? NO. I'M sorry...

 

Someone throws hateful and ugly disparaging remarks at you in public... you have every right - or even obligation - to respond in public. I find it hard to comprehend why this is not more obvious. No one - aside from now - Zola, River_Fish or myself - ever made a comment admonishing HollyD for posting these things ... which should be reserved for pm's ...

But now - as we respond - we are being admonished - and told to say these things via a private message.

 

I've yet to see a post advising the administer of the hateful comments to reserve such things to private messages...

 

Does no one else see the hypocrisy in this?

[guylainem123]

I think people are missing the point...

 

I guess I can't speak for Zola or River_Fish... but only myself. As a gay man - who grew up in a time not quite as accepting as we have today (not that it's all love and acceptance today - but light years from what it was)...

I know what it's like to have ugly and hateful insults thrown at you - for no good reason. It's how I grew up.

 

As I walk down the street and someone calls me some disparaging name or makes some inaccurate accusation... how should I respond? Do I send them a private message or a postcard as not to bother the other passers by? NO. I'M sorry...

 

Someone throws hateful and ugly disparaging remarks at you in public... you have every right - or even obligation - to respond in public. I find it hard to comprehend why this is not more obvious. No one - aside from now - Zola, River_Fish or myself - ever made a comment admonishing HollyD for posting these things ... which should be reserved for pm's ...

But now - as we respond - we are being admonished - and told to say these things via a private message.

 

I've yet to see a post advising the administer of the hateful comments to reserve such things to private messages...

 

Does no one else see the hypocrisy in this?

 

i sympathize with you if things happened in your past, i truly do. hateful remarks are never acceptable.

 

but the point of this thread is still Rufus, our Rufus experience, his music etc.. not what happened between 1 of our members and you (rufus fans). your problem is with hollyd and hollyd alone. we are all aware that you are not happy with past events, so your point was made. now settle it in private.

 

this isn't only aimed at you. when our members get into a debate, they are also told to settle it in private.

[Fmbm]

 

but the point of this thread is still Rufus, our Rufus experience, his music etc.. not what happened between 1 of our members and you (rufus fans). your problem is with hollyd and hollyd alone. we are all aware that you are not happy with past events, so your point was made. now settle it in private.

 

this isn't only aimed at you. when our members get into a debate, they are also told to settle it in private.

 

Yes. If you want quarrel, go ahead and do it privately, because other members don't want to read arguments that go on for pages and pages. We just like to keep the threads positive.

[mandilambi]

Of course Rufus added a KC show that I would love to go to, but the date isn't exactly ideal. It'll be the day after my wedding. Hmmm.... :-/

[guylainem123]

Of course Rufus added a KC show that I would love to go to, but the date isn't exactly ideal. It'll be the day after my wedding. Hmmm.... :-/

 

could be fun for you and your hubby... is it seated?

 

could go for a romantic supper, followed by some rufus love

 

unless you are on your honeymoon out of town

[mandilambi]

could be fun for you and your hubby... is it seated?

 

could go for a romantic supper, followed by some rufus love

 

unless you are on your honeymoon out of town

 

I have never been to the venue, but it looks as though it's seated. I agree, it would be great to have a nice evening out and then go to the show!

 

Actually, our honeymoon isn't set in stone yet because my fiance is finishing up his Masters so we've been planning to take our honeymoon a few weeks after we get married....so this just may work out for the best.

[HollyD]

Why is it that those in question have not actually responded? Sure the initial comments started here 2 years ago, but having read this entire thread before posts started to disappear, I saw a systematic tendency by some to just say awful things about the RWMB whenever it was brought up. A veritable smear campaign.

 

I haven't responded, because this is not the way we do things around here. You obviously have a problem with me - so, I invite you to take any further comments regarding this matter to PM. I assure you I will read and respond. NO one here wants to keep reading all this mess and no one cares. It's nothing to them - it is YOU who are making this a big deal. Posts that were made - and laying there dead in the thread WHO resurfaced all this and turned it into a war!? Not the MFC! All I did was express MY feelings, so no there is no guilt there - as those feelings are truthful to me, wether you like them or not. Those are MY feelings on the RWMB . . . no "veritable smear campaign" or aything deeper going on here. I have been an active member of the MFC community for 3 years - talk to these people everyday - have met MANY of them . . . they know WHO I am. What kind of person I am. Everyone makes comments now and then that someone else is not going to like - it dosen't make them a HORRIBLE person, or some kind of crazy puppy killer, which is what you are trying to turn this into. There is no remorse, because I meant everything I said. And you my dear, have reminded me WHY I came to feel that way in the first place!

 

I will only further respond to anything regarding this matter by PM.

Edited June 4, 2010 by HollyD
I can't spell *-*

[HollyD]

I have never been to the venue, but it looks as though it's seated. I agree, it would be great to have a nice evening out and then go to the show!

 

Actually, our honeymoon isn't set in stone yet because my fiance is finishing up his Masters so we've been planning to take our honeymoon a few weeks after we get married....so this just may work out for the best.

 

OH Amanda!!! I can't imagine anything better then getting to see Rufus the day after the MOST s p e c i a l day of my LIFE!!!!!

[Zola]

I haven't responded, because this is not the way we do things around here. You obviously have a problem with me - so, I invite you to take any further comments regarding this matter to PM. I assure you I will read and respond. NO one here wants to keep reading all this mess and no one cares. It's nothing to them - it is YOU who are making this a big deal. Posts that were made - and laying there dead in the thread WHO resurfaced all this and turned it into a war!? Not the MFC! All I did was express MY feelings, so no there is no guilt there - as those feelings are truthful to me, wether you like them or not. Those are MY feelings on the RWMB . . . no "veritable smear campaign" or aything deeper going on here. I have been an active member of the MFC community for 3 years - talk to these people everyday - have met MANY of them . . . they know WHO I am. What kind of person I am. Everyone makes comments now and then that someone else is not going to like - it dosen't make them a HORRIBLE person, or some kind of crazy puppy killer, which is what you are trying to turn this into. There is no remorse, because I meant everything I said. And you my dear, have reminded me WHY I came to feel that way in the first place!

 

I will only further respond to anything regarding this matter by PM.

 

Please, save it for a PM love. People here have already said how they've had enough. This is a place for happy, loving comments

 

So... to anyone who wishes to answer, what is your favorite Rufus song and why? I personally love Beautiful Child, Poses, Danny Boy, Between My Legs, Agnus Dei and The Dream

I love these songs because they represent a beautiful and eclectic slice of Rufus. They're all very different from each other and yet are so very very Rufus

[prussell716]

 

So... to anyone who wishes to answer, what is your favorite Rufus song and why? I personally love Beautiful Child, Poses, Danny Boy, Between My Legs, Agnus Dei and The Dream

I love these songs because they represent a beautiful and eclectic slice of Rufus. They're all very different from each other and yet are so very very Rufus

 

Too difficult All Fab choices... and you've taken Beautiful Child

I can't decide (no that's Jake) - so I'll pick from Rufus' most recent masterpiece... and while I probably would have said The Dream... I'll let Zola keep that one... and go with Martha because - as he does all the time - is so HONEST and opens up his heart for us all ... and it won me over live

Edited June 5, 2010 by prussell716

[Marianne84]

Want a list?

 

 

Waiting for a Dream

This Love Affair

Nobody's off the Hook

Poses

Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk

Another Believer

Sanssouci

Going to a Town

April Fools

California

Oh What a World

Do I Disappoint You?

Tiergarten

Zebulon

Sonnet 20

14th Street

Go Or Go Ahead

Art Teacher

The Tower of Learning

Memphis Skyline

Tulsa

Agnus Dei

Dinner at Eight

Movies of Myself

Beautiful Child

11:11

Across the Universe (cover)

 

And I probably forgot a few.

 

 

And why...

 

All these have a great tune and lyrics. Some of them have a personal meaning to me. The way I interprete them may be different than the real meaning. It's what I love about Rufus's songs as well as Mika's: they can be interpreted in more ways than one.

 

I like his version of Across the Universe more than the original by The Beatles. I think it suits his voice better, so it has more depth.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Marianne84