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Pam Travers

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sariflor

sariflor

Posted
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I love it when sparkly gets serious! and I agree with all she says too.

I'm not reglious although I was baptised and tried church when I was younger. Maybe I will try it again sometime, I don't know.

Meanwhile, I just try to be good, like sparkly says. It doesn't always work, mind you. :naughty:

 

 

Ah, but that's the thing, many believers don't manage to be good either :roftl:.

 

Like it explains in the book I recommended earlier, as much as many believers want to push the argument that moral values stem from religion, it is not really the case.

 

I think that everyone should read that book!:punk:

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Becky

Becky

Posted
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could you read my link too?

 

http://www.sbea.mtu.edu/users/slstonge/

 

I didn't read the whole thread, I read the first two pages, but I have this to say of the 10 commandments.

Surely, if God didn't want us to do these things he would programme us against it? Some of these things come naturally to people, such as lust. For example, some parents, or people in general, don't have the right to not be hated. I mean, do you honestly unconditionally love your parents, and you would no matter what? My parent and I have our arguments, and my father and I don't get along a lot of the time, due to differences in belief. Another I disagree with is the 'Have you always loved God' thing. Surely, you would have to know about God to love him/her? If it isn't clear to people, how would they know? Other, obviously, are by choice.

 

I am agnostic, because when I leave my house (I was brought up a strong atheist, and told while living in the house, I am not allowed a religion) I do plan on taking up a religion. However, I can't agree with Christianity, or numerous other religions.

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happikali

happikali

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Me too. He writes a lot for Vanity Fair and I enjoy his articles.

Yup !! Sometimes he can be so scathing .... & yet I believe that for the most part, his observation is brilliant & that he does usually 'say it like it is' ... call a spade a spade etc . :thumb_yello:

 

*never want's to be one of his 'targets' tho'* :wink2:

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Oakie Doke

Oakie Doke

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Please note: I am far too lazy to read further back than this page.

 

Toronto went through the trauma of dealing with issues surrounding Sunday shopping and opening shops on holidays fairly recently (perhaps in the last 10 years). The whole thing was ridiculous and fortunately I can shop on Sundays now! I believe for the most part shops are closed on holidays but the mall in my area is open because it's designated a tourist destination so it is exempt.

 

West Australia is going through the exact same thing. The entire rest of Australia can be open 24/7, and they make fun of our close-at-6-and-not-allowed-open-on-Sundays rules. Still nothing is allowed open yet, but, like you, the two shopping centres next to me are pretty much the only ones in the state that are allowed to be open on Sundays (thank god) for the same reason, because it's a "tourist area".

 

BUT, funny thing, it has basically nothing to do with religion I think (which I assume was the topic of this discussion), and it's just that we are incredibly lazy and like to have a day off. I think Australia is extremely un-religious compared to Europe/US. I looked it up once when I saw some figures about the amount of people of certain religions in the US and it seemed a freaking lot more than the amount of people I know. And 89% of people giving money to the church? :shocked: *googles this again*

 

Wikipedia collation:

Australia: Christian=63% Other=1% None=30%

United States: Christian=78% Other=3% None=18%

Canada: Christian=77% Other=6% None=16%

United Kingdom: Christian=71% Other=5% None=15%

Italy: Christian=91% Other=2% None=5%

 

I'm too lazy to search more now :naughty: But according to the census, Australia has a high number of athiest/agnostic/whatever you want to call its.

 

I believe the "stories " of the bible were there in the first place as a kind of guide on HOW to behave so that it benefits mankind, it was like advice really IMO and it just got twisted out of all proportions over the centuries and I find it quite repugnant what has been done to it and how it has been changed and used in a very unsavoury way for some people to gain power over others.

 

I can't stand the "our god is better than your god" mentality that so many religions whole heartedly believe too, enough to kill another human being over. It can't be right to do that, if god does exist he would be horrified at what some people have done to his good intentions don't you think.

 

Yes exactly! They are just warped stories that people take a bit too seriously. Essentially nice stories, sure. And it's great if people want to live their lives by the values they learn in them. But a little bit of common sense goes a long way, and fighting and killing over your interpretations of the same story is just ridiculous.

 

However, I asked about this to an extremely strongly religious friend and he said he disagreed with holy wars too, and that people who kill in the name of God are .. insane or something .. because it doesn't go along with what the bible says at all. Which is good. ... he still thinks it's a sin to be gay though :rolls_eyes: Even though (random thing I found out:naughty:) it's recently been proven that sexuality is determined when you are a fricking embryo.

 

I've questioned my faith so many times and the answers I get back almost seem like a cop out - being told that I will never fully understand what God's plan is because our human thinking is limited (like explaining what 'love' is to an insect). But that the key is faith. Have also been repeatedly told that if a person is sincerely trying to seek 'truth', then he/she would read the Bible (which was written by people with a bias) -although they claim was written with God's guidance. But how do we know that? And why do different sects of Christianity interpret it differently? I've been told to pray to ask for guidance to get the correct interpretation - but what if everyone else is praying for the same thing and still interpreting a different version?

So then the next cop-out answer might be: A personal relationship with God is more important than any man-made church and it's rules. But it brings me back to why I would have a personal relationship with God, when I'm not sure who? what? and why?

 

To be scared to go to hell is not a good reason to believe in someone or something.

 

This is exactly how I see it too. Especially that there are so many different conflicting interpretations of the same thing. Only one (or none) can be right, right? And as if there is any way of ever actually finding that out before you die. To me it seems completely illogical for any kind of God to exist, but it once seemed completely illogical for the Earth to not be flat (which, btw, there is a group called the "Flat Earth Society" - funniest thing ever), so who knows. Not me, and not some random religion that I pick out of a hat. And I don't need any random religion telling me how to live my life - I am perfectly capable of making moral decisions on my own, thanks.

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Oakie Doke

Oakie Doke

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Like it explains in the book I recommended earlier, as much as many believers want to push the argument that moral values stem from religion, it is not really the case.

 

I have another really religious friend, who, seriously, is doing a biological course, and doesn't 'believe' in evolution. Still has to learn and understand it though, and he does, but he has some sort of wall in his head telling him "Yes, this is correct, but humans started as humans, and God made them like that."

 

Anyway, we were talking to him about evolution/creationism and his only real argument was that there is no evolutionary reason for human's morals, and that God must have created them via the 10 commandments.

 

But that's wrong, because animals living together (who are obviously exempt from the commandments) have 'morals' as well, like pecking orders and stuff like that. If one animal wins the fight then they have the right to the mate, or if an animal enters another's territory they have the right to attack them, or whatever, shared parenting, stuff like that. And human/neanderthals/etc lived together, were more intelligent, and so developed more sophisticated morals. If an animal doesn't follow the 'morals' of the group, they are kicked out/die/don't reproduce ... hence, morals can be explained my evolution.

 

But of course this friend wouldn't hear any of that :rolls_eyes:

 

I didn't read the whole thread, I read the first two pages, but I have this to say of the 10 commandments.

Surely, if God didn't want us to do these things he would programme us against it? Some of these things come naturally to people, such as lust. For example, some parents, or people in general, don't have the right to not be hated. I mean, do you honestly unconditionally love your parents, and you would no matter what? My parent and I have our arguments, and my father and I don't get along a lot of the time, due to differences in belief. Another I disagree with is the 'Have you always loved God' thing. Surely, you would have to know about God to love him/her? If it isn't clear to people, how would they know? Other, obviously, are by choice.

 

Yeah exactly! Why give us urges to do things that will result in eternity in hell? The sick bastard.. :naughty:

 

But I asked this to the extremely religious friend that I asked about the wars and he explained this is like .. to do with Adam and Eve. At first God created perfect people, but then they wanted to have the choice to do what they want so he gave it to them. And like ... how fricking boring would life be if we were all exactly perfect ... there'd be completely no point to existing.

 

And I also said about how stupid it is that people living in the middle of Africa or something, who have never had a chance to have heard of God are automatically damned to hell. And he was like; Well, that's why it's a Christian's mission in life to try to spread the word of Jesus to as many people as possible (and also the reason why he is going on a 12 month missions trip to 11 different obscure poverty-stricken countries :rolls_eyes: did I mention he is extremely extremely religious? Lol, no, but good on him, he's helping the communities while he's there too, but still ... :rolls_eyes:)

But, to me, this is still a completely stupid system. No matter how hard they try to spread the word, there are still going to be billions of people dying who have never heard of God, and wtf is the point in making your creations waste their entire lives doing that anyway?

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artsyfartsy17

artsyfartsy17

Posted
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Read through everything again and found everyone's opinions fascinating, especially the "some people need religion" viewpoint.

 

I am christian. Please don't shoot.:bleh: I'm here and not in the christian thread because there's only so many different ways I can say "I agree" before sounding like a broken record, and frankly, it's boring. I'd much rather see how the different sides think.

 

I definitely think I first got into religion more for the therapeutic aspect rather than a sudden rush of feeling for God. It was a very dark time, and the only thing that kept me from committing suicide back in those years was the possibility of something more. But I never actually felt that there was a God. I didn't feel some benevolent entity watching over me, I just felt alone. It wasn't until years later that I began to experience that feeling that people told me I would feel if I "just kept faith."

 

That's a stupid thing to tell children, and my kids (if I have any), definitely won't be told to believe in something just because I tell them to. If they don't feel it, they don't feel it, and all I can do is pray that God will reveal himself to them in his own good time, because I do think He takes his own sweet time with certain people, the bugger.:sneaky2:

 

I could spend hours dissecting what I perceive as flaws in the Hitchens book, but I don't think any of you would be interested in hearing it.:naughty:

 

I think, though, that some of you don't quite understand all the opinions of religious individuals. Everyone has to figure out their own opinion when it comes to the creation of the world, and yes, there are a few who take religious texts at face value and just sort of ignore what's been scientifically proven, but do you really think we all believe that?

I believe in evolution. How could I not? It's been proven. Yes, we came from apes. But that doesn't mean I think that God had no part in it, at least in the beginning, and guided evolution down the path it has taken.

 

And I know that the Bible is flawed. It wasn't written by God, it was written by a bunch of biased, sexist, racist old men with inflated ideas of their own importance, and too often, MUCH too often, people use it to justify their prejudices and narrow-minded ideas. Yes, Paul said that homosexuality is wrong. But Paul isn't God, and his opinion shouldn't be accepted as fact. Except for historical reference, I largely discount the Old Testament, and the main article I paid any attention to in the New Testament is the part where Jesus states that the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments, is pointless, and the only thing we as humans need to do in order to follow God is to love one another. And from some of your posts in this thread, loving one another, and generally being a good person, is what you think is the proper way to live as well.:wink2:

 

I have a question to pose...not trying to start fights, not trying to poke holes in your stance, just trying to really understand where you're coming from.

 

A lot of you mentioned that you'd rather believe in what has been proven, what you know, what you feel, than some obscure being who hasn't bothered to give any trace of his/her/it's existence.

 

What would happen if you did see proof?:blink:

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Suzy

Suzy

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What would happen if you did see proof?:blink:

 

 

That might bring on more questions. How do we know it's proof?

If one knew without a doubt, that they had proof, how does one share that with others? It's almost as if it would bring us right back to the same place where we would have to believe in someone else's account again (the Bible?).

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Emerald

Emerald

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Read through everything again and found everyone's opinions fascinating, especially the "some people need religion" viewpoint.

 

I am christian. Please don't shoot.:bleh: I'm here and not in the christian thread because there's only so many different ways I can say "I agree" before sounding like a broken record, and frankly, it's boring. I'd much rather see how the different sides think.

 

I definitely think I first got into religion more for the therapeutic aspect rather than a sudden rush of feeling for God. It was a very dark time, and the only thing that kept me from committing suicide back in those years was the possibility of something more. But I never actually felt that there was a God. I didn't feel some benevolent entity watching over me, I just felt alone. It wasn't until years later that I began to experience that feeling that people told me I would feel if I "just kept faith."

 

That's a stupid thing to tell children, and my kids (if I have any), definitely won't be told to believe in something just because I tell them to. If they don't feel it, they don't feel it, and all I can do is pray that God will reveal himself to them in his own good time, because I do think He takes his own sweet time with certain people, the bugger.:sneaky2:

 

I could spend hours dissecting what I perceive as flaws in the Hitchens book, but I don't think any of you would be interested in hearing it.:naughty:

 

I think, though, that some of you don't quite understand all the opinions of religious individuals. Everyone has to figure out their own opinion when it comes to the creation of the world, and yes, there are a few who take religious texts at face value and just sort of ignore what's been scientifically proven, but do you really think we all believe that?

I believe in evolution. How could I not? It's been proven. Yes, we came from apes. But that doesn't mean I think that God had no part in it, at least in the beginning, and guided evolution down the path it has taken.

 

And I know that the Bible is flawed. It wasn't written by God, it was written by a bunch of biased, sexist, racist old men with inflated ideas of their own importance, and too often, MUCH too often, people use it to justify their prejudices and narrow-minded ideas. Yes, Paul said that homosexuality is wrong. But Paul isn't God, and his opinion shouldn't be accepted as fact. Except for historical reference, I largely discount the Old Testament, and the main article I paid any attention to in the New Testament is the part where Jesus states that the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments, is pointless, and the only thing we as humans need to do in order to follow God is to love one another. And from some of your posts in this thread, loving one another, and generally being a good person, is what you think is the proper way to live as well.:wink2:

 

I have a question to pose...not trying to start fights, not trying to poke holes in your stance, just trying to really understand where you're coming from.

 

A lot of you mentioned that you'd rather believe in what has been proven, what you know, what you feel, than some obscure being who hasn't bothered to give any trace of his/her/it's existence.

 

What would happen if you did see proof?:blink:

Mmh, I guess if the existence of God was to be proven one day, I'd believe in him... I'm the kind of girl who "believes what she sees"... But I also believe we will never have any proof.

Btw, I found your opinion interesting! And yes, I'm one of those who believe in love and friendship and who wish to be a good person. It's not because of the paradise (I don't believe in that), but because I think being a good person means having a good life and being happy!:)

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Oakie Doke

Oakie Doke

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I didn't feel some benevolent entity watching over me, I just felt alone. It wasn't until years later that I began to experience that feeling that people told me I would feel if I "just kept faith."

 

What do you mean? What do you feel now (if it's possible to explain/describe)?

 

I believe in evolution. How could I not? It's been proven. Yes, we came from apes. But that doesn't mean I think that God had no part in it, at least in the beginning, and guided evolution down the path it has taken.

 

And I know that the Bible is flawed. It wasn't written by God, it was written by a bunch of biased, sexist, racist old men with inflated ideas of their own importance, and too often, MUCH too often, people use it to justify their prejudices and narrow-minded ideas.

 

:bow: :bow:

 

Except for historical reference, I largely discount the Old Testament, and the main article I paid any attention to in the New Testament is the part where Jesus states that the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments, is pointless, and the only thing we as humans need to do in order to follow God is to love one another. And from some of your posts in this thread, loving one another, and generally being a good person, is what you think is the proper way to live as well.

 

See, I couldn't be bothered going through it all to figure out which things make sense and which don't, instead of just ... doing what makes sense. But that's me. And I'm lazy anyway :naughty:

 

What would happen if you did see proof?:blink:

 

Immediately do everything he wanted :naughty:

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babspanky

babspanky

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Well for sure, I believe that there are more things on heaven and earth than we understand, so I would never discount the existance of a higher being. But I am a bit like OD or was it Emerald, I like to see the proof for myself.

What would I do?

I have no idea!

I mean bad things happen to those who have faith and believe, so what advantages would there be.

 

I do kind of envy those who have faith though, it obviously brings them comfort in hard times.

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artsyfartsy17

artsyfartsy17

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Hell:mf_rosetinted:

Very elonquent point of view. Thank you for explaining so thoroughly so that I might understand why you feel the way you do.:mf_rosetinted:

That might bring on more questions. How do we know it's proof?

If one knew without a doubt, that they had proof, how does one share that with others? It's almost as if it would bring us right back to the same place where we would have to believe in someone else's account again (the Bible?).

Yes, that's often the problem. I suppose you would have to decide for yourself. I have a friend that says she would believe if there was something outrageous enough, but how outrageous do things have to get before you say "Oh, it's just a crazy coincidence."?

 

I have seen what I consider proof, but some people will come up with the maddest explanations just to try to render my experiences pointless.

Mmh, I guess if the existence of God was to be proven one day, I'd believe in him... I'm the kind of girl who "believes what she sees"... But I also believe we will never have any proof.

Btw, I found your opinion interesting! And yes, I'm one of those who believe in love and friendship and who wish to be a good person. It's not because of the paradise (I don't believe in that), but because I think being a good person means having a good life and being happy!:)

That goes back to what Suzy said, I guess. How do we know proof when we see it?

I agree with you; religion notwithstanding, being a good person will generally give you a happier life.

What do you mean? What do you feel now (if it's possible to explain/describe)?

It is difficult to describe. I guess "feel" might be the wrong word, since feelings can be so easily discounted. I'm sure Hitler "felt" he was doing the right thing.:naughty:

But instead of just sitting there, praying and asking for a sign and not getting any sort of answer back, I am now getting answers back. I'm getting signs.

As I stated above, these signs are very open to interpretation, but I choose to interpret them as God's communication with me.

 

*sigh* I'm starting to sound like every other religious fanatic you've ever heard, I'm sure, but it's very hard to put into words.:bleh: I just know that before, it was a one-way conversation and I was terribly unhappy, and now, it has somehow turned into a two-way exchange and I'm much better, emotionally.

See, I couldn't be bothered going through it all to figure out which things make sense and which don't, instead of just ... doing what makes sense. But that's me. And I'm lazy anyway :naughty:

Neither could I, for a long time, but I had someone help me through it by making it interesting.

"And here is where Judas sells Jesus out for a few bucks. Just totally betrays him! See? It's like a soap opera!":naughty:

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Pam Travers

Pam Travers

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I meant most of Mika's blogs, I believe. :mf_rosetinted:

 

lol

 

no wait UNLOL, i dont want to hear about that non blogist anymore, he can take back all of his mentos, im angry now.

 

i wonder in what the kid believes besides plastic

 

 

@artsy, your welcome, i like your name

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