Any atheists ?

[artsyfartsy17]

like a month ago i went to a party in a church and some people were there against the party because they argued that we couldnt have fun in a place where there was once refugees and suffering.

 

wat you think?

 

 

@christine, it was true for the blog!!! with the black magic!!! i thought you were kidding me yesterday,oh god, anyway, i just commented ,lol...

 

i was shocked.

 

Now that's just silly. If you're going to use that rule, we'd never have a place to party.

[Pam Travers]

that what makes me angry with religious people, in particulare the "christian fundamentalists"..why do you have to spoil the others lives, perverted minds?! Fustigate yourself in a dark angle and shut the fk up

 

 

what's the matter with black magic?

 

yeah self sacrifice, autodafé etc. especially if you are a woman, shut the fck up and wear a pull over

 

oh yesterday i said i refused to talk about a non blogist and christine said: but he did blog and told me he bought books of black magic

 

it really made me laugh because i thought she was just joking but it was true...

btw i have something that mika wont find in his book, like a prayer you have to read before you go to sleep , written in a weird language, and you have to read it three times (thrices?) , i got it from someone who were doing black magic, i did it and it was awful, it really worked...

[Pam Travers]

Now that's just silly. If you're going to use that rule, we'd never have a place to party.

 

yeah i know thats why ive spent thirty minutes talking with those people, xplaining them that they would rather collaborate with the people who were creating the event in order to collect some money they could give to associations, but those people were really dumb, they said " i dont know" lol

[artsyfartsy17]

yeah i know thats why ive spent thirty minutes talking with those people, xplaining them that they would rather collaborate with the people who were creating the event in order to collect some money they could give to associations, but those people were really dumb, they said " i dont know" lol

 

Aren't they the bright bulbs?

 

Your suggestion was good! Some people just want to cause trouble no matter what.

[Pam Travers]

Aren't they the bright bulbs?

 

Your suggestion was good! Some people just want to cause trouble no matter what.

 

supposed to ...

 

 

yeah i know,lol, it was a great idea and i was really surprised they didnt seem much interested. and not my style to cause trouble if its not necessary.

 

 

btw i found some atheist poetry ,lol, and some poems are great

 

No sticks and stones have touched my bones,

But words indeed have hurt me.

The taunts and jibes from Smith and Jones,

And those who would convert me.

 

Whisper the fiery wrath of hell,

And then speak of love sublime.

And how long would it take to tell

How those two things can combine?

 

Tell me my thought, my will is free

And then say I must obey.

Explain about eternity,

Which I must choose day by day.

 

 

another one

 

One little word

For all the answers

One little word

For all your needs

One little word

For all the answers

One little word

Get on your knees.

 

We are God

Our creation, the deity

We are God

Bow down to humanity

We are God

Bow down to me

 

 

We don't care about what we can't see.

We don't mind the contradiction,

We don't mind the hypocrisy.

[sienna]

 

I believe in people, in the beauty and wonder of nature, in animals, in friendship, in love....I believe in so many things that make me happy to be living, and that make me enjoy this world, so that I just do not feel the need for more when it comes to an end.

 

 

 

Holly, this Sariflors words about what kind of believe you can have without being religious the “traditional way”! (She is so good with words!)

I feel the same way!

 

Right now I can’t find any words of my own to explain it better but I hope you get the point!

[phunkygal]

To tell you the truth -- I was ALWAYS taught that Atheist MEANT:

someone who does NOT beleive in God....but, beleives in the devil - therefore being EVIL. I guess that is why the word FREAKS me out. Because I beleive with all of my heart there is a God named Jesus Christ and he died on the cross and that there is a DEVIL .... satan, lucefer, bealzebub whatever you want to call him. When I was little - I was told anyone who does not beleive in God ... worships the devil.

 

Of course I know that is not true now

 

Haha, really? I didnt know what atheist was until I was 10 and watched a documentary. Obviously it didn't register with my little brain, but it got me thinking, 'Why am I going to sunday school when I dont belive in god?' What I was taught was basically nothing by my parents, but my grandparents who thought if you didnt believe in 'something' you were evil. I DONT worship the devil, and again, I say I am half atheist because I belive in saints and demons, just not God. Which means I am not really atheist at all. People say that to belive in demons you have to belive in God, but I dont.

[Naectegale]

One can talk about being open-minded and letting everyone do as they so choose, but in the end, we all think that OUR belief is what's really true(obviously, or why would we continue believing it?). The difference is that when you let me practice what I want, you're indulging me, letting me carry on with whatever silly practice I choose and it's easy to say that it's my right to do so, because you believe that it's ineffectual anyways. However, if I let you continue on being a non-believer without saying anything, there are serious consequences. For your immortal soul, and, indirectly, for mine.:

 

Artsy - this is indeed a huge problem - people with "beliefs" really do feel compelled to convert others "for their own good" - which those on the receiving end view as an outragous imposition (I'm talking generally - I'm not suggesting you are guilty of this - I appreciate the care with which you have expressed yourself in this thread ). This is the case whether the receiver is atheist or of a different religion.

 

If religion was simply "whatever silly practice I choose" and didn't affect anyone else, then it wouldn't matter so much. In real life, it matters - I as an atheist in the UK, am restricted by archaic "christian-based" laws relating to Christmas, Easter and Sunday trading, as are all Muslims and Jews, who have to regulate their own "holy" days without state assistance.

 

We have a lot of "equality" legislation in the UK, covering age, race, religion and sexual orientation. It is necessary to have this legislation - discrimination on these matters is not acceptable in a civilised society. But there are still clashes - e.g. when the government decided to give gay couples equal rights in adoption with straight couples, the Catholic adoption agencies asked to be exempted, and had a lot of support from Catholic MPs. I, as an atheist, thought the Catholics were wrong to want an exemption, because I believe they are wrong about homosexuality. But if I was a Catholic, I would belive the law was wrong and I would be running counter to my religion in complying with it. I can't see a compromise here which would satisfy all parties.

 

I think religion originally held societies together, when communities were geographically segregated and everyone in each area believed the same thing. But we are now in a world where societies are very mixed, so we have to find a way to get along with each other which minimises the differences and emphasises the things which unite us. The problem with "fundamentalists" of all religious persuasions is that they emphasise the differences.

[Fmbm]

Ok, so I KNOW that you are not saying this with a malicious intention, but I must point out that I find it strange that you are so surprised about it.

 

There are many atheists and agnostics in the world, so why would MFC not have any? Were you really expecting everyone here to be religious?

 

 

 

It's not so much that I'm surprised that there are a lot of MFCers that are atheists, but just in general. I only find it surprising because I'm ignorant and have no idea of what percentage of religions surround me.

[artsyfartsy17]

I am not asking this question to be mean, but because I have known a lot of Christians who have complained about being laughed out of science courses:

 

Did you get laughed out because you believe in God or because your belief in God made it difficult for you to understand the scientific principles you were studying?

 

The most common example I can think of is having to study evolution. Most of the Christians I have known have been so busy trying to disprove evolution, because they believe in creationism, that they have failed exams about evolution because they never took the time to understand the theory. Then, they blamed their instructors for their poor grades and said that their instructors had no respect for their Christian beliefs about creationism.

 

I found it interesting that they never complained about having to learn about the Greek gods in literature class or the spiritual customs of the Aztecs in anthropology class.

 

It is perfectly acceptable to disagree with things that one is learning about, but it is still one's responsibility to learn those things when one is in a classroom studying them.

 

Good question, and often a hot topic for debate, but no, I completely understand and believe in evolution.

 

It was said earlier in this thread that evolution is a theory, that it hasn't been proven, but I consider it good as proven. All one has to do is look at the flora and fauna of the Galapagos Islands to see proof. There are new species from island to island and in some cases, cave to cave, all because of evolution. I'm a very strong believer of it and have been able to incorporate it into my version of creationism.

 

When I say I'm laughed out, I mean because I believe in God. For instance: A professor once made a joke about having all the christians go to one side of the room, and then dropping that half of the room from the class. When it came to light that some of us, myself included, actually were christians, we were subject to a lot of indulgent "Now, this might clash with some of your ideas, but bear with us..." even though we hadn't said anything that would indicate we were close-minded or expecting any sort of editted, faith-based explanation.

 

To go into a biology class and expect anything different than biology is just silly, and I would probably have a few choice words to say to any christian of my acquaintance that did so. I went for biology and I expected biology, and what I got was a lot of condescending remarks and teasing. The professor was eventually reported to the dean for it.

[artsyfartsy17]

Artsy - this is indeed a huge problem - people with "beliefs" really do feel compelled to convert others "for their own good" - which those on the receiving end view as an outragous imposition (I'm talking generally - I'm not suggesting you are guilty of this - I appreciate the care with which you have expressed yourself in this thread ). This is the case whether the receiver is atheist or of a different religion.

 

If religion was simply "whatever silly practice I choose" and didn't affect anyone else, then it wouldn't matter so much. In real life, it matters - I as an atheist in the UK, am restricted by archaic "christian-based" laws relating to Christmas, Easter and Sunday trading, as are all Muslims and Jews, who have to regulate their own "holy" days without state assistance.

 

We have a lot of "equality" legislation in the UK, covering age, race, religion and sexual orientation. It is necessary to have this legislation - discrimination on these matters is not acceptable in a civilised society. But there are still clashes - e.g. when the government decided to give gay couples equal rights in adoption with straight couples, the Catholic adoption agencies asked to be exempted, and had a lot of support from Catholic MPs. I, as an atheist, thought the Catholics were wrong to want an exemption, because I believe they are wrong about homosexuality. But if I was a Catholic, I would belive the law was wrong and I would be running counter to my religion in complying with it. I can't see a compromise here which would satisfy all parties.

 

I think religion originally held societies together, when communities were geographically segregated and everyone in each area believed the same thing. But we are now in a world where societies are very mixed, so we have to find a way to get along with each other which minimises the differences and emphasises the things which unite us. The problem with "fundamentalists" of all religious persuasions is that they emphasise the differences.

 

Yes, I remember what it was like when I was agnostic. Nothing could make me angrier faster than someone trying to "save" me. That's why I try to keep suggestions away from my views as much as possible and just try to explain my side. Plus, it does no good to talk about converting to a person who's already created a negative stigma around it.

 

For the rest... That's just ridiculous. And I thought the whole argument over the phrase "under God" in the pledge of allegiance was out of place.

 

You're right; it's getting harder and harder in this day of extra fast communication to not tread on anyone's toes. Eventually, I think we'll have to change our mindset or else we'll all kill each other.

[JackViolet]

Funny thing about the whole "rot when you die" thing...

 

Back in college, when I was taking an intro theology course, and we were supposed to debate various religions' versions of the afterlife, one kid looked at me in horror when I said I was was atheist and said something like, "but... how can you be an atheist? That means you have to believe there is nothing when we die!" I said that yes, that's what it meant, and asked why he thought it was such a problem. He replied "but it's so awful, it can't be true."

 

I had to laugh at the logic there. Just because something is unpleasant doesn't mean it can't be true.

 

And besides that, I don't think there is anything "awful" in the idea that there is nothing when you die. If anything, it's comforting. Not-existing is not painful or anything--it's just nothing! No need to worry about hell, or about anything--it's simply like before we are born.

 

--Jack

[JackViolet]

When I say I'm laughed out, I mean because I believe in God. For instance: A professor once made a joke about having all the christians go to one side of the room, and then dropping that half of the room from the class. When it came to light that some of us, myself included, actually were christians, we were subject to a lot of indulgent "Now, this might clash with some of your ideas, but bear with us..." even though we hadn't said anything that would indicate we were close-minded or expecting any sort of editted, faith-based explanation.

 

I went to a Catholic university, but yeah, this happens and is pretty awful. I have actually tried to correct some profs I've seen who did that... the faculty at my current university also tends to assume that everyone is liberal/democrat. I am very liberal, but I've spoken up when some people have made disparaging remarks about conservatives in class, because I feel that's unprofessional.

 

The funny thing about Greek gods... I say I'm atheist, but I actually have some of my own ideas about Greek gods that don't mesh with the general information on them. Despite that, when in class, I make sure to stick to the generally accepted info. What I believe due to personal hunches, etc, is irrelevant.

 

--Jack

[elanorelle]

I think we all go back to atoms and electrons and go back into everything again..we are all reborn all the time

[mika-fan1001]

Funny thing about the whole "rot when you die" thing...

 

Back in college, when I was taking an intro theology course, and we were supposed to debate various religions' versions of the afterlife, one kid looked at me in horror when I said I was was atheist and said something like, "but... how can you be an atheist? That means you have to believe there is nothing when we die!" I said that yes, that's what it meant, and asked why he thought it was such a problem. He replied "but it's so awful, it can't be true."

 

I had to laugh at the logic there. Just because something is unpleasant doesn't mean it can't be true.

 

And besides that, I don't think there is anything "awful" in the idea that there is nothing when you die. If anything, it's comforting. Not-existing is not painful or anything--it's just nothing! No need to worry about hell, or about anything--it's simply like before we are born.

 

--Jack

(im not atheist) but i like to listen to other beliefs, and i like to compare them, but i get curious about "is my religion right on that? will i ever know?" and all that, and im not sure if theyres an afterlife when u die or anything, so its like, does it really matter? you'll be dead, u wont know if your wrong or right, unless theyre is an afterlife.

[Naectegale]

You're right; it's getting harder and harder in this day of extra fast communication to not tread on anyone's toes. Eventually, I think we'll have to change our mindset or else we'll all kill each other.

 

I'm sorry you had an unfortunate experience with your professor - I'm glad he was reported to the Dean, and I hope he got into serious trouble.

 

And yes - we have to change our mindset - we can't rely on legislation. In the UK we have had a number of cases where people have been pushing the equality legislation as far as they can.

 

eg A muslim girl who applied to work in a trendy hair salon as a hair stylist, but expected to be allowed to wear a headscarf. She didn't get the job- the salon owner wanted someone with nice hair on show - so she went to a tribunal claiming religious discrimination. She lost (but got compensation for "hurt feelings":boxed:)

 

eg A christian registrar refused to perform civil partnership ceremonies for gay couples, claiming it was against her religion. She claimed religious discrimination and won.

 

Cases like these get publicity and provoke debate, but often it has a negative effect - the individuals are accused of being awkward or publicity seeking or being politically motivated i.e. "looking for trouble". Often the criticism extends to the equality legislation itself - the very good reasons for having the legislation in the first place, to remedy real discrimination of the worst kind, gets lost.

 

A little more tolerance on all sides is needed so that we don't need to resort to the law, but I can't see it happening at the moment.

 

xx N

[JackViolet]

I'm sorry you had an unfortunate experience with your professor - I'm glad he was reported to the Dean, and I hope he got into serious trouble.

 

And yes - we have to change our mindset - we can't rely on legislation. In the UK we have had a number of cases where people have been pushing the equality legislation as far as they can.

 

eg A muslim girl who applied to work in a trendy hair salon as a hair stylist, but expected to be allowed to wear a headscarf. She didn't get the job- the salon owner wanted someone with nice hair on show - so she went to a tribunal claiming religious discrimination. She lost (but got compensation for "hurt feelings":boxed:)

 

Really? I think that complaint is entirely merited. Whether or not the Muslim girl wears her headscarf has no bearing on how well she can cut hair. What if a bald man had applied for the position--could they deny him the job just because he doesn't have pretty hair to show off, despite the fact that he may be highly skilled?

 

--Jack

[Pam Travers]

i dont believe life is a rehearsal:mf_rosetinted:

[FREDDIESDOUBLE]

Not for me , but I want to add my two pence ...

 

If we take the basic laws of physics , energy can not be created not destroyed , we are energy .When we die we leave a shell behind , the enrgy that is left must by nature go somewhere.It doesnt mean we end up on a cloud with a harp

 

Its so difficult to say where we go , I do believe we go somewhere and there is much more to this life.

 

Same thing I really struggle with the concept of the human as we are ... two atoms come together , from small rock , forms ant , forms bird , then an elephant then monkey and a human .. the complexity of the human body is far far too complex for me to think it just happened , even over millions and millions of years.

 

The thing is for an engineer like myself it cannot be proven , but if we stand back then its very hard for us to grasp that all of this is just a sudden chance of luck to end up where we are now

[Naectegale]

Really? I think that complaint is entirely merited. Whether or not the Muslim girl wears her headscarf has no bearing on how well she can cut hair. What if a bald man had applied for the position--could they deny him the job just because he doesn't have pretty hair to show off, despite the fact that he may be highly skilled?

 

--Jack

 

I was giving examples, and deliberately avoided giving my opinion on the verdicts.

 

I can see your point re the headscarf - it wouldn't bother me if my hairdresser wore one. But the "beauty" industry can be very shallow and the tribunal seem to have accepted that. I think the compensation for "hurt feelings" is odd - does it indicate some feelings of guilt on behalf of the tribunal?

 

For the record - I disagreed with the other verdict too - why should anyone be able to bring their personal prejudices to work? It was a civil ceremony, not a religious one - she was happy to marry heterosexual couples in a secular environment, although (I assume) her religion would only recognise a church wedding, so what is the difference apart from prejudice?

[artsyfartsy17]

supposed to ...

 

 

yeah i know,lol, it was a great idea and i was really surprised they didnt seem much interested. and not my style to cause trouble if its not necessary.

 

 

btw i found some atheist poetry ,lol, and some poems are great

 

No sticks and stones have touched my bones,

But words indeed have hurt me.

The taunts and jibes from Smith and Jones,

And those who would convert me.

 

Whisper the fiery wrath of hell,

And then speak of love sublime.

And how long would it take to tell

How those two things can combine?

 

Tell me my thought, my will is free

And then say I must obey.

Explain about eternity,

Which I must choose day by day.

 

 

another one

 

One little word

For all the answers

One little word

For all your needs

One little word

For all the answers

One little word

Get on your knees.

 

We are God

Our creation, the deity

We are God

Bow down to humanity

We are God

Bow down to me

 

 

We don't care about what we can't see.

We don't mind the contradiction,

We don't mind the hypocrisy.

They're probably just put off because they were sh*t-stirring just for the sake of it and then you took away their reason for complaining.

 

Both of those poems are great, and I especially like the second paragraph of the first one. Funny, how some people are able to follow a version of God they've interpreted as "good and forgiving, as long as you don't piss him off." We were discussing that in my early british lit. class today, how that Anglo-Saxon idea of a great and noble king is one that is dedicated and loyal to his people, but instantly unforgiving and vengeful when insulted or betrayed in any way, and how that idea was juxtaposed onto God when christianity was brought to western Europe. Interesting how that idea has been passed down to parts of modern christians today...seems rather ludicrous to me.

Thank you for sharing that. I wasn't aware that some professors behave that way, though I'm finding, as I get older, that I am less surprised that all kinds of people are jerks sometimes.

 

What that person was doing was totally uncalled for. Suggesting that people be dropped from a class for their religious beliefs creates a hostile environment (in at least some states, if not all, that is illegal under educational accessibility laws. It's harrassment.) I might be able to believe that his "this might clash with some of your ideas" comments were simply to cover his butt, but I have seen many science instructors show an awareness for people's beliefs without being condescending like that.

 

I'm sorry to hear you had that experience.

I am glad that he got reported to the dean.

 

I spent a good many years feeling too stupid for science because so many people told me that girls suck at science. So, now that I love the subject passionately, I am really angered to hear of anybody being made to feel unwelcome in their pursuit of the studying it.

 

(I am hoping to return to university and get a degree in engineering and am strongly interested in physics. I wanted to study biology and be a veterinarian, but my allergies put a halt to that right quick.)

Oh, a science nerd!

 

I love science. I started out striving to do well in it in rebellion to that annoying "it's a boy subject" attitude that I also had to deal with while growing up, but I ended up being very interested in it, particularly the biology aspect.

 

It's frustrating to hear that you also were subject to that sexist attitude. I have a friend who is a mathematics major at Harvard() and because of the subject she's chosen, her ethnicity, and the fact that she's female, Harvard is practically paying her to go to school there. In that case, at least, things are improving, although she often tells me of unpleasant experiences she has in her classes, since that subject, particularly in that university, is still very much a boy's club. This is the 21st century! I'm constantly shocked (although you'd think I'd be used to it now) by how backwards-thinking so many people still are.

I went to a Catholic university, but yeah, this happens and is pretty awful. I have actually tried to correct some profs I've seen who did that... the faculty at my current university also tends to assume that everyone is liberal/democrat. I am very liberal, but I've spoken up when some people have made disparaging remarks about conservatives in class, because I feel that's unprofessional.

 

The funny thing about Greek gods... I say I'm atheist, but I actually have some of my own ideas about Greek gods that don't mesh with the general information on them. Despite that, when in class, I make sure to stick to the generally accepted info. What I believe due to personal hunches, etc, is irrelevant.

 

--Jack

Greek gods, eh? Care to share your ideas? I'd love to hear them.

I'm sorry you had an unfortunate experience with your professor - I'm glad he was reported to the Dean, and I hope he got into serious trouble.

 

And yes - we have to change our mindset - we can't rely on legislation. In the UK we have had a number of cases where people have been pushing the equality legislation as far as they can.

 

eg A muslim girl who applied to work in a trendy hair salon as a hair stylist, but expected to be allowed to wear a headscarf. She didn't get the job- the salon owner wanted someone with nice hair on show - so she went to a tribunal claiming religious discrimination. She lost (but got compensation for "hurt feelings")

 

eg A christian registrar refused to perform civil partnership ceremonies for gay couples, claiming it was against her religion. She claimed religious discrimination and won.

 

Cases like these get publicity and provoke debate, but often it has a negative effect - the individuals are accused of being awkward or publicity seeking or being politically motivated i.e. "looking for trouble". Often the criticism extends to the equality legislation itself - the very good reasons for having the legislation in the first place, to remedy real discrimination of the worst kind, gets lost.

 

A little more tolerance on all sides is needed so that we don't need to resort to the law, but I can't see it happening at the moment.

 

xx N

It's one of those situations where, unfortunately, you've got to just keep trying to win smaller battles one at a time so that you can be prepared for the large one. It's an uphill struggle, but hopefully sometime in the future, we can achieve it.

i dont believe life is a rehearsal:mf_rosetinted:

Can I use that saying?

 

It fits so perfectly to my theory on life in general. Life's much, much too short and I'm going to live well, be happy, and experience as much as I can, because the afterlife...who knows for sure?

 

If I'm going to just be snuffed out when I die, or have to sit on a f*ckin' cloud for the rest of eternity, I'm going to do as much as I can so my life wasn't wasted, or at least so I have plenty of interesting memories to think about while playing my harp.

[Ruth]

It's not so much that I'm surprised that there are a lot of MFCers that are atheists, but just in general. I only find it surprising because I'm ignorant and have no idea of what percentage of religions surround me.

 

No, it's tricky to tell when people don't talk about it.

 

I've had some problems at work: it's a Church school and at first I was aware that most of my colleagues were very committed Christians, so I kept quiet. Over the years as I've failed to support Church activities (at weekends) and when I took my (register office) wedding album in, they got the idea. Over the same years we've also got members of other faiths on the staff so there's no expectation any more of everyone being the same.

 

It is odd when I teach R.E.

 

Funny thing about the whole "rot when you die" thing...

 

And besides that, I don't think there is anything "awful" in the idea that there is nothing when you die. If anything, it's comforting. Not-existing is not painful or anything--it's just nothing! No need to worry about hell, or about anything--it's simply like before we are born.

 

--Jack

 

Just nothing. Exactly. I have no problem wiith that.

 

Do you think a death bed conversion will save me if I catch a glimpse of St Peter and the pearly gates

 

I think we all go back to atoms and electrons and go back into everything again..we are all reborn all the time

 

Yes, in the molecular sense, but not with any personal memories.

 

The first things I struggled with when I got to that age when you start thinking about abstract issues were:

What happens to people who don't know about God?

How, if God made me and my brain denies him, can he punish me after death for using my brain?

How can the suffering of others be explained away as a test of us and our power to help.

And the Catholic stuff about unbaptized babies going to purgatory..... What kind of God would blame the babies rather than the parents? It's like the days when the children of unmarried mothers were spurned and castigated.

 

Mind you, belief and religious practice are two different things and the practices of churches and some of the people involved in them take your breath away!

[Fmbm]

 

And besides that, I don't think there is anything "awful" in the idea that there is nothing when you die. If anything, it's comforting. Not-existing is not painful or anything--it's just nothing! No need to worry about hell, or about anything--it's simply like before we are born.

 

--Jack

 

That is the scariest thing to me. I've started crying while thinking about it, but I push it away from my mind.

[Pam Travers]

They're probably just put off because they were sh*t-stirring just for the sake of it and then you took away their reason for complaining.

 

Both of those poems are great, and I especially like the second paragraph of the first one. Funny, how some people are able to follow a version of God they've interpreted as "good and forgiving, as long as you don't piss him off." We were discussing that in my early british lit. class today, how that Anglo-Saxon idea of a great and noble king is one that is dedicated and loyal to his people, but instantly unforgiving and vengeful when insulted or betrayed in any way, and how that idea was juxtaposed onto God when christianity was brought to western Europe. Interesting how that idea has been passed down to parts of modern christians today...seems rather ludicrous to me.

 

 

 

lmao, you write a lot.

 

yes, absolutely, many rebellions are symbolic, thats why they put off when you give a REAL solution, they dont really want to change things, they want to lay an act of disagreement. thats very feminine btw.

 

...for the rest i never really think about that. actually i never really think,lol

 

about poetry i just read a very long analyse of someone about prose and poetry and ...i really dont know what fascinates me the most. anyway yeah the poems are good but not as good as the christian ones, it will probably take some more centuries,lol

[Pam Travers]

 

 

mh..ok nothing to contribute apart from sterile polemics..so

 

same here:bye:

 

 

i saw a contemporary vision of the last supper made by an argentinan artist. that was very interesting, in south america religion is so important and cheap at the same time. im fascinated by south american art.