The Appleman : The Return of the Jedi (part 3)

[Kelzy]

Well, once they're agreed on by all the mods we will be posting them...

 

I think we all agree that we need to be as open as possible for this place to run as smoothly as possible...

Though, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel the conversation is going in circles...

 

So, I shall sleep on it... and make myself more stressed out as it is (mostly cause of the main part of my sig and waiting to hear about jobs)...

 

Night all...

That's right, because things like that should be agreed upon by all the mods.

 

So goodnight Teegs and I hope you're not so stressed tomorrow

[lollipop_monkey]

How are we supposed to function under these circumstances? The lack of rules, lack of transparency and vague accusations by unnamed people that is pervading this forum in the past few weeks is paralyzing. People are making jokes like "Suzy, don't get yourself banned today." but there is a sad truth at the root of it.

 

I can answer that, on a general level.

 

No one will be banned, even temporarily, without being first contacted via PM by a moderator. So unless a mod has PM'd you directly about the tone or content of something you've posted on here, you need not not fear being randomly banned. We don't crawl out of bed in the morning, look at the list of who's online, and start randomly banning people willy-nilly.

 

No need to walk on eggshells, guys. As Diana said, we're compiling a list of guidelines that should clear things up. But in the mean time, as long as people use basic respect in their MFC dealings, there won't be any problems.

[dcdeb]

Hi all, I'm addressing Christine's post here,

but it seems you all have similar concerns,

so please don't feel like I'm picking on you or singling you out!

 

What we want now is to know what exactly provokes a banning because we have no idea what the criteria is.

 

As you pointed out, we don't see anything banworthy in Kata, Yop or Cynthia's behaviour which means our own behaviour could be just as offensive or inflammatory or whatever it is you think warrants a ban.

 

We have been trying to come up with guidelines for this, Christine

-- maybe you missed it because you were away, but I did post

this the other day:

 

http://www.mikafanclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13389&page=6

 

Posts #63 and #69 (no comments, please ).

 

Now before you all jump on me and argue that the posts made by

Kata and Yop and Cynthia don't fit these criteria, I will just note

that these are merely general GUIDELINES, not set in stone rules, that

we have been debating the merits of. Obviously some situations may

require different responses, and these might change.

 

As I wasn't here from Friday morning to late last night, except for the

occasional quick 5-minute login, I can't judge what precipitated

the bannings -- I have to rely on the judgement of the moderators who

*were* here. I do trust them, and know that none of them take

the idea of banning anyone lightly.

 

How are we supposed to function under these circumstances? The lack of rules, lack of transparency and vague accusations by unnamed people that is pervading this forum in the past few weeks is paralyzing. People are making jokes like "Suzy, don't get yourself banned today." but there is a sad truth at the root of it.

 

This really saddens me, too. While there is a certain amount of not wanting

to air our dirty laundry in public, I don't think there's anything wrong

with wanting to talk about things, as long as it can be done in a

reasoned, non-confrontational way.

 

I don't know how to get around the "vague accusations." If someone

sends me a PM, I can't say to you, Member 1 sent me a PM that said

XYZ about you. All I can really say is that I've gotten PMs. If you don't

believe me, I don't know how to change that. You have to believe that

I have some integrity -- that I wouldn't lie about things like that.

Because, when it comes right down to it -- sure, I could lie

and make things up, and you wouldn't be able to prove it. And

I could ban anyone for any reason at all if I wanted to -- I just

don't happen to think that that's why I was made a moderator.

If you don't believe I (or the other moderators that I helped

choose) have that integrity, then I'm not sure what we can do

to set your mind at ease.

 

As I said above, we ARE trying to implement some guidelines, so

no one has to wonder what a "bannable" offense is.

 

The thing is, we all are intelligent enough to know when

what we're saying could be taken the wrong way, i.e. is inflammatory

or offensive. I mean, it's the difference between saying, "I think you're

a moron," and "I strongly disagree with you." There is a difference right?

 

Does this help at all? Or create more confusion and consternation?

 

dcdeb

[sienna]

Thank you all my fellow MFC members who have with so big patience tried to clear things up according to the banning issue.

I usually keep a low profile (and my reason is the lack of language) but when this happened I was really concerned because I want to understand what is going on in this forum.

Not that I have become so much wiser on the reason for the banning but I appreciate your attempt to bring some light on it.

 

Clique- is that supposed to be negative or positive?

I can never be sure about the nuances in the language but when it comes to the apples, I just want to say that this is a group of really great and friendly people and with that I mean both in this thread and in real life!

And the tone in this thread is welcoming and friendly imo.

The humour and sarcasm is a healthy spice who just adds to the experience!

[Wendi]

Thank you all my fellow MFC members who have with so big patience tried to clear things up according to the banning issue.

I usually keep a low profile (and my reason is the lack of language) but when this happened I was really concerned because I want to understand what is going on in this forum.

Not that I have become so much wiser on the reason for the banning but I appreciate your attempt to bring some light on it.

 

Clique- is that supposed to be negative or positive?

I can never be sure about the nuances in the language but when it comes to the apples, I just want to say that this is a group of really great and friendly people and with that I mean both in this thread and in real life!

And the tone in this thread is welcoming and friendly imo.

The humour and sarcasm is a healthy spice who just adds to the experience!

 

Sienna - was it you I met in London - and signed your dvd?

I am an Oldling, with a bad memory!!

[sienna]

Sienna - was it you I met in London - and signed your dvd?

I am an Oldling, with a bad memory!!

 

Yes it was me!

It was great to finally meet you!

 

I asked as many MFC people as I could recognise to sign my dvd and now I have around 45 names on it. And like the icing on the cake I have Mikas, Cherisse and Lukes signs too.

[Wendi]

Yes it was me!

It was great to finally meet you!

 

I asked as many MFC people as I could recognise to sign my dvd and now I have around 45 names on it. And like the icing on the cake I have Mikas, Cherisse and Lukes signs too.

 

That is great!!! It was good to meet you too - and I mentioned

you in my report!!

[violet_sky]

Um... what happened? LOL, there you go to London for just a week just to find yourself totally out of plot at the return

I feel some tension, what's going on?

[Kelzy]

Um... what happened? LOL, there you go to London for just a week just to find yourself totally out of plot at the return

I feel some tension, what's going on?

Hey,

To sum it up, 4 members have been banned. for one week

Pink, Yop, Kata and Cynthia.

It all originated from the afterparty thread.

http://www.mikafanclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13435

Resulted in numerous PM's between members and mods and ended in banned members. Well, it hasn't ended actually.

 

Diana says we can PM her for more information.

 

Does that cover most of it?

[dcdeb]

Hey,

To sum it up, 4 members have been banned.

Pink, Yop, Kata and Cynthia.

It all originated from the afterparty thread.

http://www.mikafanclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13435

Resulted in numerous PM's between members and mods and ended in banned members. Well, it hasn't ended actually.

 

Diana says we can PM her for more information.

 

Does that cover most of it?

 

I would just add: Banned for one week.

 

And you could PM me as well

 

dcdeb

[Kelzy]

I would just add: Banned for one week.

 

And you could PM as well

 

dcdeb

 

:thumb_yello:Thanks Deb

[JackViolet]

Regarding the explanation I gave you.. I think I made it clear on the previous page that what I said had to suffice.

I can not and will not go into details.

 

My only question on all this now: you can not and will not go into details on what makes an "inflammatory" post?

 

Because I am still entirely lost as to how saying "goodbye" could be the final straw, whether these are friends of mine or not. Especially since by saying goodbye, they were consciously removing themselves from further drama, and the thread was entirely civil.

 

But, again: is it NOT possible to be told what an "inflammatory" post is?

 

--Jack

[Scut Monkey]

OK, I have only one question left now.

 

It's been established that Kata, Yop and Cynthia were banned for "a pattern of behaviour" that many members have complained to the mods about. My question is: what happens if a person makes posts that they're within their right to make yet other members complain about?

 

Jack illustrated it well:

 

I'm still confused as to the PM issue. If I got 10 people to PM the mods about how much they hate what say, CazGirl is posting and how we think it's offensive, would we be able to get her banned even if nothing she posted was actually against the rules, just because we think it's "inflammatory"?

 

My implication is: do we trade fairness for stability? Do we act unfairly to one person to keep others happy?

 

Or has Niki already answered my question in her post below?

 

Mods are on the side of the majority, not one or 2 people

[nico_collard]

My only question on all this now: you can not and will not go into details on what makes an "inflammatory" post?

 

Because I am still entirely lost as to how saying "goodbye" could be the final straw, whether these are friends of mine or not. Especially since by saying goodbye, they were consciously removing themselves from further drama, and the thread was entirely civil.

 

But, again: is it NOT possible to be told what an "inflammatory" post is?

 

--Jack

 

I assume we will give examples of what an inflammatory post would look like when we sort out the guidelines...

 

OK, I have only one question left now.

 

It's been established that Kata, Yop and Cynthia were banned for "a pattern of behaviour" that many members have complained to the mods about. My question is: what happens if a person makes posts that they're within their right to make yet other members complain about?

 

Jack illustrated it well:

 

 

 

My implication is: do we trade fairness for stability? Do we act unfairly to one person to keep others happy?

 

Or has Niki already answered my question in her post below?

 

 

The bold bit: People will make complaints about other people, can't really stop it...

 

I think the difference is, the mods will look at the post, and if it's quite obviously inappropriate, they will delete it and speak to the writer... if not, the mods that are on will discuss it, and go from there (likely involve speaking to the writer and see if they can explain it I would imagine)...

 

Does that make it a bit clearer Scut?

[Kelzy]

Based on some mods recent pattern of behaviour regarding privacy, I am left to assume that if I found out tomorrow that Mika is gay, it would be ok for me to come to MFC and post it all over the boards. And especially if 2 or 3 members asked me to reveal it.

Of course there'd be no point checking if Mika minds.

Because here at MFC we don't respect privacy.

 

Clearly an issue that needs addressing now, isn't it..

[sariflor]

Gone................

[dcdeb]

OK, I have only one question left now.

 

It's been established that Kata, Yop and Cynthia were banned for "a pattern of behaviour" that many members have complained to the mods about. My question is: what happens if a person makes posts that they're within their right to make yet other members complain about?

 

My implication is: do we trade fairness for stability? Do we act unfairly to one person to keep others happy?

 

 

I think, Scut, it's the same as with any time you have to make

decisions -- you have your guidelines, but then you also have to

apply common sense. It's not always black or white.

 

I'm not going to ban someone on the strength of one or two complaints.

Obviously. I may not even PM someone if I've only had one complaint

about them. But when I start getting a string of complaints, PLUS I

see for myself that someone seems to be delighting in stirring up some

trouble, then I have to respond.

 

Obviously, people have a right to complain, or express their frustration

or other negative feelings here. That's not the problem. I think the

problem is HOW they choose to express their feelings -- as I said

before, if I call someone an idiot because they have a different opinion

than mine -- well, we can't really condone that. I don't think giving

an infraction to or banning a person who consistently expresses

their negative feelings in an unacceptable way is being unfair.

 

So we have our general guidelines, and then there is a certain amount of

discretion involved as well.

 

Based on some mods recent pattern of behaviour regarding privacy, I am left to assume that if I found out tomorrow that Mika is gay, it would be ok for me to come to MFC and post it all over the boards. And especially if 2 or 3 members asked me to reveal it.

Of course there'd be no point checking if Mika minds.

Because here at MFC we don't respect privacy.

 

Clearly an issue that needs addressing now, isn't it..

 

Well, actually, if you've had a look at JackViolet's wonderfully thorough

FAQ here:

 

http://www.mikafanclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13389

 

you'll see that we actually address that very issue -- about Mika's privacy,

I mean.

 

I'm not sure who you're accusing or what you're accusing them of when

you say "some mods recent pattern of behaviour regarding privacy."

 

Do you mean in revealing someone's alter egos on the forum? Or do you

mean in withholding details of a PM? I'm a little confused as to what

you're referring to.

 

dcdeb

[FREDDIESDOUBLE]

I think, Scut, it's the same as with any time you have to make

decisions -- you have your guidelines, but then you also have to

apply common sense. It's not always black or white.

 

I'm not going to ban someone on the strength of one or two complaints.

Obviously. I may not even PM someone if I've only had one complaint

about them. But when I start getting a string of complaints, PLUS I

see for myself that someone seems to be delighting in stirring up some

trouble, then I have to respond.

 

Obviously, people have a right to complain, or express their frustration

or other negative feelings here. That's not the problem. I think the

problem is HOW they choose to express their feelings -- as I said

before, if I call someone an idiot because they have a different opinion

than mine -- well, we can't really condone that. I don't think giving

an infraction to or banning a person who consistently expresses

their negative feelings in an unacceptable way is being unfair.

 

So we have our general guidelines, and then there is a certain amount of

discretion involved as well.

 

 

 

Well, actually, if you've had a look at JackViolet's wonderfully thorough

FAQ here:

 

http://www.mikafanclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13389

 

you'll see that we actually address that very issue -- about Mika's privacy,

I mean.

 

I'm not sure who you're accusing or what you're accusing them of when

you say "some mods recent pattern of behaviour regarding privacy."

 

Do you mean in revealing someone's alter egos on the forum? Or do you

mean in withholding details of a PM? I'm a little confused as to what

you're referring to.

 

dcdeb

 

Yeh that one was me DC , Im not perfect .. damn close though

[Suzy]

Yeh that one was me DC , Im not perfect .. damn close though

 

Again - admission of wrongs is a good thing. Thank you Freddie for setting an example. If "outing" other identities is not the right thing to do around here - should it be a fair assumption then, that the previous "outings" of multiple identities earlier in this thread also be considered "wrong"? (ie. Cynthia?). Or, is will that be evaluated differently because of the circumstances?

 

I, myself, have been guilty of putting too much emotion in some of my rants and I will also eat humble pie...sorry to anyone who've I've recently offended.

[sariflor]

Again - admission of wrongs is a good thing. Thank you Freddie for setting an example. If "outing" other identities is not the right thing to do around here - should it be a fair assumption then, that the previous "outings" of multiple identities earlier in this thread also be considered "wrong"? (ie. Cynthia?). Or, is will that be evaluated differently because of the circumstances?

 

I, myself, have been guilty of putting too much emotion in some of my rants and I will also eat humble pie...sorry to anyone who've I've recently offended.

 

I can see your point Suzy, and I also try and be fair and correct my comments if it's brought to my attention that they may not be ok, so I have deleted my earlier post.

It's a complicated matter though and one thing that I really don't want though, is for some to become "martyrs" of the cause, when in reality the full facts behind "some's" actions are not known.

Fair enough, now I have not said publicly what I had posted earlier, but it's for that reason that I still stand by what I said about people/us/some not knowing all the facts behind certain realities, hence that the matter becomes far more complex than we previously thought.

[Wendi]

I think we have to trust the integrity, honesty and fairness of

the Mods - if we dont then we will question everything they

do. I have had no problems with them in MY dealings with them,

but I think its an individual thing - and if we have questions we

should be able to ask them, and get a reasonable answer.

[JackViolet]

Nico_collard, Deb, thanks for elaborating.

 

Fair enough, now I have not said publicly what I had posted earlier, but it's for that reason that I still stand by what I said about people/us/some not knowing all the facts behind certain realities, hence that the matter becomes far more complex than we previously thought.

 

It doesn't matter, posting the other ids was still too much.

 

And unless Cynthia's other ids had a habit of starting goodbye threads, I don't see how a single post in one now was in any way related to any previous action. I do not believe that in themselves, any of the posts in the Drama goodbye thread could possibly be worth being banned, or were even at all offensive.

 

If the mods had issues with Cynthia before, they should have banned her then, for whatever issues they were. (Same for Kata and Yop.) Not for ostensibly provoking them with the "final straw" of politely wishing goodbye.

 

Anyway, I am just really tired of all this now, and would like to say I am also out of here.

 

Not quite as dramatically, and I'm not saying "out of here" for good, but I can't stand the forums they way they are now, I don't trust a lot of the moderating team, and I feel extremely uncomfortable here in the current atmosphere.

 

--Jack

 

P.S. This is where I could have used the Drama Goodbye thread, as I feel making my own is silly and do not want to make a ton of announcements on other threads, but it would be nice if other people knew that I left for a while if they start to wonder where I am.

[dcdeb]

Anyway, I am just really tired of all this now, and would like to say I am also out of here.

 

I am already missing you...

 

dcdeb

[Suzy]

Anyway, I am just really tired of all this now, and would like to say I am also out of here.

 

Not quite as dramatically, and I'm not saying "out of here" for good, but I can't stand the forums they way they are now, I don't trust a lot of the moderating team, and I feel extremely uncomfortable here in the current atmosphere.

 

--Jack

 

P.S. This is where I could have used the Drama Goodbye thread, as I feel making my own is silly and do not want to make a ton of announcements on other threads, but it would be nice if other people knew that I left for a while if they start to wonder where I am.

 

 

Bye for now, Jack...(on MFC anyway)

 

I am afraid that if I write:

 

"I agree with you" or "I don't blame you" or "I understand, because I feel the same way to a large degree" - that my words will be frowned upon and be used against me as a pattern of behaviour that is not wanted around here, because it would mean expressing the truth...so I will NOT express that.

 

I am not as strong as you.

 

At the same time however, there are still people here, I enjoy interacting with. And there are still many things about this forum that I love. I am staying because of those few things. And a part of me has great hope that things will turn around and improve. I hope to see you back at that time.

 

*I can see it now..someone thinking "there goes another Apple needing to express more drama...":naughty:

[sariflor]

It doesn't matter, posting the other ids was still too much.

 

I didn't mention them though...:wink2:I spoke "in bulk", not posting the names.

 

At the same time however, there are still people here, I enjoy interacting with. And there are still many things about this forum that I love. I am staying because of those few things. And a part of me has great hope that things will turn around and improve. I hope to see you back at that time.

 

My feelings as well Suzy. Exactly my own position.